Eritheyl2012-09-06 15:47:08
As suggested, the LoralAria special report thread is now a standalone entity. For the purposes of keeping things neat, this first post will serve as the running report stuffed to the brim with the best proposals and arguments for the skills below.
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BlueBerceuse
Problem: Sleep is funky, and highly unreliable for locks as a guild without access to a dominate ability. This skill is also unable to strip kafe.
Suggestions:
1.) Allow it to strip kafe while damaging if the target is asleep on tic.
AureolinAubade
Problem: 15% chance of lusting is still very slight, giving Glamourists a distinct disadvantage.
Suggestions:
1.) Try to increase chance of proc (again) - very last resort.
2.) Change to active effect that gives lust, change stanza placement.
3.) Introduce secondary effect on tic if target is not already lusted.
4.) Change to afflict with daydreaming if ungemmed, chance of pacify and higher proc rate of lust if gemmed.
FleckedFortissimo
Problem: Tics in conjunction with BlueBerceuse and MidnightMinuet, which already sprawl/knock the target off-balance.
Suggestions:
1.) Change tic placement to proc in tandem with VioletVibrato.
2.) Keep current placement, but add a 1s stun if the target is already prone.
SkySforzando
Problem: Very powerful, but also very difficult for Glamourists to use. Any changes to AureolinAubade would likely impact this severely, so alterations may not be necessary at all.
Suggestions:
1.) Remove lust requirement.
Convergence
Problems: Extremely bizarre and relatively useless in terms of combat due to both effect and prerequisite.
Suggestions:
1.) Change to active skill that attempts to summon mutual allies/lusted enemies within area to the bard. Proposed cost of 1p per ally summoned and 2p per lusted enemy summoned.
2,) Change to passive skill that attempts to beckon one unprotected enemy per tic from adjacent rooms.
---
BlueBerceuse
Problem: Sleep is funky, and highly unreliable for locks as a guild without access to a dominate ability. This skill is also unable to strip kafe.
Suggestions:
1.) Allow it to strip kafe while damaging if the target is asleep on tic.
AureolinAubade
Problem: 15% chance of lusting is still very slight, giving Glamourists a distinct disadvantage.
Suggestions:
1.) Try to increase chance of proc (again) - very last resort.
2.) Change to active effect that gives lust, change stanza placement.
3.) Introduce secondary effect on tic if target is not already lusted.
4.) Change to afflict with daydreaming if ungemmed, chance of pacify and higher proc rate of lust if gemmed.
FleckedFortissimo
Problem: Tics in conjunction with BlueBerceuse and MidnightMinuet, which already sprawl/knock the target off-balance.
Suggestions:
1.) Change tic placement to proc in tandem with VioletVibrato.
2.) Keep current placement, but add a 1s stun if the target is already prone.
SkySforzando
Problem: Very powerful, but also very difficult for Glamourists to use. Any changes to AureolinAubade would likely impact this severely, so alterations may not be necessary at all.
Suggestions:
1.) Remove lust requirement.
Convergence
Problems: Extremely bizarre and relatively useless in terms of combat due to both effect and prerequisite.
Suggestions:
1.) Change to active skill that attempts to summon mutual allies/lusted enemies within area to the bard. Proposed cost of 1p per ally summoned and 2p per lusted enemy summoned.
2,) Change to passive skill that attempts to beckon one unprotected enemy per tic from adjacent rooms.
Eritheyl2012-09-10 02:26:14
Alright, I'm cracking down on this, so pardon what will likely be perceived as catty anger/complete desperation (though the latter is close).
The Symphonium is nearly empty, and I am the only member that seems willing to even give this report a second thought. This is already the worst possible foot we could be getting off on. Combat is not something I come close to excelling at, nor are game mechanics a thing I can easily recall and work with in theorycrafting. My ideas are all half-formed, and mostly unwritten, because I can't seem to organize them in a way that will even be remotely helpful for the purpose of this report. I'm at my wit's end. But this is -my- end of the problem, and will hopefully be fixed before it's too late for this report.
But you! Yes, you! If you're reading this and have -any- input to offer, be it positive or negative, relative to what is here or entirely original and tangential, I am quite literally begging at this point. Give me a small break (I need it, really!), and chime in if you have something constructive.
(Again I'm half asleep, so you'll see that I never did get to those edits/fill-ins I mentioned earlier. Please don't point this out to me, I will get there tomorrow if RL obligations allow it.)
The Symphonium is nearly empty, and I am the only member that seems willing to even give this report a second thought. This is already the worst possible foot we could be getting off on. Combat is not something I come close to excelling at, nor are game mechanics a thing I can easily recall and work with in theorycrafting. My ideas are all half-formed, and mostly unwritten, because I can't seem to organize them in a way that will even be remotely helpful for the purpose of this report. I'm at my wit's end. But this is -my- end of the problem, and will hopefully be fixed before it's too late for this report.
But you! Yes, you! If you're reading this and have -any- input to offer, be it positive or negative, relative to what is here or entirely original and tangential, I am quite literally begging at this point. Give me a small break (I need it, really!), and chime in if you have something constructive.
(Again I'm half asleep, so you'll see that I never did get to those edits/fill-ins I mentioned earlier. Please don't point this out to me, I will get there tomorrow if RL obligations allow it.)
Malarious2012-09-10 04:40:58
Hi Eritheyl, you are not catty but if you did not want help or thoughts you would not have posted to the forums. So it is expected you wanted opinions and such. That said lets try this again, and I had an idea:
BlueBerceuse
Problem: Sleep is funky, and highly unreliable for locks as a guild without access to a dominate ability. This skill is also unable to strip kafe*, even if the effect is doubled and used in conjunction with Beastmastery Sleepcloud, further limiting its effectiveness.
* - to my current knowledge. Requires another test when I'm awake, to triple-check.
I do not think it will strip kafe, because it says if they are asleep it does damage.
Suggestions:
1.) Foo.
I would leave this be, I had another thought for you instead. Though I would prefer other information on it, under skysforzando.
AureolinAubade
Problem: 15% chance of lusting is still very slight, giving Glamourists a distinct disadvantage.
Suggestions:
1.) Try to increase chance of proc (again) - very last resort. Not likely
2.) Change to active effect that gives lust. Possible, but a 2-2.5s lust might be a bit nutty so would cost power
3.) Introduce secondary effect on tic if target is already lusted. This does not help the song really.
4.) Change to constant, passive effect that alters the potency of bard's love potion by either A. increasing proc rate for lusting opponent to bard, or B. lessening/removing proc rate of lusting bard to opponent. A bard should not have love potion up unless they are prepared for ill effects, I do not think you want to focus any songs on self love potion, as you are just asking the song allow you to love potion twice.
This is what we call a preferred tertiary setup. Tarot works best for your guild, no question about it. What is the goal of a glamourist anyway? Weave off eq and setup for aurics. You are not specially setup for that nor does your lust really have to do with it. This song was made for tarot.
FleckedFortissimo
Problem: Tics in conjunction with BlueBerceuse and MidnightMinuet, which already sprawl/knock the target off-balance.
Suggestions:
1.) Change tic placement to proc in tandem with VioletVibrato.
2.) Keep current placement, but add a 1s stun if the target is already prone.
Sure
SkySforzando
Problem: Very powerful, but also very difficult for Glamourists to use. Any changes to AureolinAubade would likely impact this severely, so alterations may not be necessary at all.
Suggestions:
1.) Foo.
I was wondering about making this a bit more.... loved. Change having sapphire to strip metawake on the target when used. The stun is probably longer than the recovery time, so when you leave you can use sleep enchant, use mesmerize, etc to strip kafe if you timed it to hit with your song. This would be sleep+aeon lock, which I am not sure how powerful it is for you, it could be crazy powerful (8s insta might be too reliable).
Convergence
Problems: Extremely bizarre and relatively useless in terms of combat due to both effect and prerequisite.
Suggestions:
1.) Change to active skill that attempts to summon mutual allies/lusted enemies within area to the bard. Proposed cost of 1p per ally summoned and 2p per lusted enemy summoned. It should charge the power up front, but probably should exempt people already in the bards room. I assume it has a normal delay.
2,) Change to passive skill that attempts to beckon one unprotected enemy per tic from adjacent rooms. No
All in all I think, like cantors, your guild was designed to try to imitate guardians (cantors had the best aeon lock before we nerfed recessional). You would be very well with a couple changes with soulless, but because of how long it can take to wake from sleep, and how generally easy a sleeplock is to achieve with beasts now, it is a problem I think will only increase over time.
BlueBerceuse
Problem: Sleep is funky, and highly unreliable for locks as a guild without access to a dominate ability. This skill is also unable to strip kafe*, even if the effect is doubled and used in conjunction with Beastmastery Sleepcloud, further limiting its effectiveness.
* - to my current knowledge. Requires another test when I'm awake, to triple-check.
I do not think it will strip kafe, because it says if they are asleep it does damage.
Suggestions:
1.) Foo.
I would leave this be, I had another thought for you instead. Though I would prefer other information on it, under skysforzando.
AureolinAubade
Problem: 15% chance of lusting is still very slight, giving Glamourists a distinct disadvantage.
Suggestions:
1.) Try to increase chance of proc (again) - very last resort. Not likely
2.) Change to active effect that gives lust. Possible, but a 2-2.5s lust might be a bit nutty so would cost power
3.) Introduce secondary effect on tic if target is already lusted. This does not help the song really.
4.) Change to constant, passive effect that alters the potency of bard's love potion by either A. increasing proc rate for lusting opponent to bard, or B. lessening/removing proc rate of lusting bard to opponent. A bard should not have love potion up unless they are prepared for ill effects, I do not think you want to focus any songs on self love potion, as you are just asking the song allow you to love potion twice.
This is what we call a preferred tertiary setup. Tarot works best for your guild, no question about it. What is the goal of a glamourist anyway? Weave off eq and setup for aurics. You are not specially setup for that nor does your lust really have to do with it. This song was made for tarot.
FleckedFortissimo
Problem: Tics in conjunction with BlueBerceuse and MidnightMinuet, which already sprawl/knock the target off-balance.
Suggestions:
1.) Change tic placement to proc in tandem with VioletVibrato.
2.) Keep current placement, but add a 1s stun if the target is already prone.
Sure
SkySforzando
Problem: Very powerful, but also very difficult for Glamourists to use. Any changes to AureolinAubade would likely impact this severely, so alterations may not be necessary at all.
Suggestions:
1.) Foo.
I was wondering about making this a bit more.... loved. Change having sapphire to strip metawake on the target when used. The stun is probably longer than the recovery time, so when you leave you can use sleep enchant, use mesmerize, etc to strip kafe if you timed it to hit with your song. This would be sleep+aeon lock, which I am not sure how powerful it is for you, it could be crazy powerful (8s insta might be too reliable).
Convergence
Problems: Extremely bizarre and relatively useless in terms of combat due to both effect and prerequisite.
Suggestions:
1.) Change to active skill that attempts to summon mutual allies/lusted enemies within area to the bard. Proposed cost of 1p per ally summoned and 2p per lusted enemy summoned. It should charge the power up front, but probably should exempt people already in the bards room. I assume it has a normal delay.
2,) Change to passive skill that attempts to beckon one unprotected enemy per tic from adjacent rooms. No
All in all I think, like cantors, your guild was designed to try to imitate guardians (cantors had the best aeon lock before we nerfed recessional). You would be very well with a couple changes with soulless, but because of how long it can take to wake from sleep, and how generally easy a sleeplock is to achieve with beasts now, it is a problem I think will only increase over time.
Asmodea2012-09-10 06:46:06
AurelionAubade - Making it active wouldn't be any use, since its a low stanza song, I would suggest maybe introducing a secondary affliction or effect to it, that would fire if it doesn't lust, so alteast the song does something the other 85% of the time rather than nothing.
BlueBercuese - Fine the way it is, however maybe introduce the kafe strip to hit if they are already asleep aswell as the damage. Maybe also add in a tiredness factor with it too like SeleneLullaby used to. (I miss old Wildarrane :( )
FleckedFortissimo - I was upset when this skill was changed from its original ability to cause stun on an active move. My opinion would be to put it back the way it was and just make it a high stanza song. You already have songs that sprawl. If not then the suggestions above are good.
SkySforzando - I think this is good the way it is, the only unfortunate part of it is that the lust factor for glamourists, but it is workable for them to if they track Aurelion well.
Convergence - No idea, sorry.
RedRubato - Unless it changed from when I was there, I would maybe see about upping the damage it causes, it was pitiful and neglible when I used it. I suggest something started around ~300-400.
I would also think about introducing a Clouded environment effect, the guild had ideas when I was in it for them, also maybe something that meshes with Institute like Cantors/Angels, Caco/Devil etc etc. The guild had ideas for them too.
BlueBercuese - Fine the way it is, however maybe introduce the kafe strip to hit if they are already asleep aswell as the damage. Maybe also add in a tiredness factor with it too like SeleneLullaby used to. (I miss old Wildarrane :( )
FleckedFortissimo - I was upset when this skill was changed from its original ability to cause stun on an active move. My opinion would be to put it back the way it was and just make it a high stanza song. You already have songs that sprawl. If not then the suggestions above are good.
SkySforzando - I think this is good the way it is, the only unfortunate part of it is that the lust factor for glamourists, but it is workable for them to if they track Aurelion well.
Convergence - No idea, sorry.
RedRubato - Unless it changed from when I was there, I would maybe see about upping the damage it causes, it was pitiful and neglible when I used it. I suggest something started around ~300-400.
I would also think about introducing a Clouded environment effect, the guild had ideas when I was in it for them, also maybe something that meshes with Institute like Cantors/Angels, Caco/Devil etc etc. The guild had ideas for them too.
Ushaara2012-09-10 13:50:16
BlueBerceuse:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: Sleep + minor damage if asleep
Gemmed: 50% chance for double sleep
No problems here.
JadeGrazioso:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: 5%(?) health regen only.
Gemmed: 10%(?) health regen only.
Probably the weakest of the bard regen songs when ungemmed, which it will be outside of bashing. I'd leave for usual envoy cycle and focus on changes elsewhere for special report.
CrimsonCourante:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: personal & allies: +bal, -eq
Gemmed: How much faster? Eq malus also increased?
While this is one of those situationally useful songs (loralbard + 5 warriors/monks), I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using this outside of gathering herbs. Though spinning gems for Institute is also on balance.
AureolinAubade:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: 15% chance for lusting
Gemmed: 15% chance for lusting/peace.
Asmodea has the right of it here, does nothing most of the time, and I -think- the peace only hits when the lusting hits, making it lackluster as a gemmed effect too.
ChromaConcerto:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: 10 DMP to fire/cold/electric
Gemmed: 20 DMP to fire/cold/electric
No problems here.
MidnightMinuet:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: Force off balance. (1s)
Gemmed: Force off balance more. (2s)
Standard song effect. No problems here.
FleckedFortissimo:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: Prones
Gemmed: Prones + 50% disrupt focus balance.
Current position of tick (with Blue/Midnight) isn't doing this any favours, and since it doesn't hit with any aff songs, focus balance is back before you notice it was gone.
VioletVibrato:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: clumsiness/deadening/dizziness/epilepsy/omniphobia/vapors
Gemmed: (?)% chance for two of above.
Some nice afflictions included, but think I would prefer if they were not all kombu cures, or if the range was expanded to include non-kombu cures, so the affs aren't instanteously cured without a diagnose.
Crescendo:
=-=-=-=-=-
Stanza: Mid
No problems here.
EmeraldGrazioso:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High
Ungemmed: passive curing
Gemmed: +passive curing (is it % chance of curing 2 affs?)
No problems here.
SkySforzando:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High (3p)
Ungemmed: aeon + stun lusted target
Gemmed: double aeon + stun lusted target (ie, break through quicksilver)
Powerful, and what makes balancing the rest trickier. Lust requirement leave glamourists at a distinct disadvantage.
RedRubato:
=-=-=-=-=-
Stanza: High
Ungemmed: Timewarp + scaling damage
Gemmed: Timewarp + scaling damage
If I recall correctly, even when gemmed, a single focus mind is enough to cure the timewarp, so the damage never gets above negligible, and Institute timewarping is a burst thing so, yeah, not fantastic. Maybe leave for envoy cycle though.
ClearCapriccio:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High
Ungemmed: alacrity for allies, song ender
Gemmed: alacrity + some curing for allies, song ender
Report already submitted.
Convergence:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High (5p), song ender
Single target 'reality' on sleeping target that also aeon/stuns. Not a fan of griefery 'let's break in' abilities.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Typical Combat Song:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
S1: BlueBerceuse (gemmed - 50% Double Sleep)
S2: AureolinAubade (15% chance of lusting)
S3: JadeGrazioso (minor health regen)
S4: MidnightMinuet (2s off bal)
S5: FleckedFortissimo (sprawl)
S6: VioletVibrato (gemmed - chance of two kombu affs)
S7: RedRubato (timewarp + scaling damage) (Alternate option for gemming)
S8: EmeraldGrazioso (passive curing)
S9: SkySforzando (gemmed - aeon+stun)/Funebre
In Practice:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Song forces this: fall asleep/be sprawled for 1s --> 7s later --> focus mind, eat kombu.
Tarot Loralbard: rub soulless, rub soulless, rub soulless... fling lust, blanknote, sleep hit + aeon/stun song, fling soulless.
ie. primarily tarot, song secures the kill.
Glamour Loralbard: upkeep blanknote/sight, aurics/colourburst/hinder, pray for chance to aeon/stun.
ie. primarily upkeep, pray you get lucky with aeon/double indigo for chance to damage kill.
Problems:
=-=-=-=-=
Low stanzas:
Choice for 3rd stanza is between AureolinAubade and CrimsonCourante, both are lackluster.
Mid stanzas:
No major problems, just tweak FleckedFortissimo.
High stanzas:
- No choice.
- SkySforzando is powerful, but lust req means Glamourists have distinct disadvantage, unlike say a Cantor Glamourist who can aeon at will.
Potential Solutions:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If removing lusting is on the table:
AureolinAubade: ungemmed: something... maybe daydreaming?
gemmed: keep pacify, maybe improve the 15% rate to encourage variety in gemmed effects.
SkySforzando: ungemmed: aeon/stun
gemmed: aeon/stun + amnesia (not double aeon, no access to anorexia)
If removing lusting is not on the table:
Problem stems from Glamour bards not being able to lust at will. Possibility of a 1/2p new ability in Glamours that lusts? Something like:
"Gazing at you hypnotically, Eritheyl passes a hand in front of his face, revealing himself to be the object of your desires."
New:
=-=-=
CloudCantabile - cloudy terrain song. (probably low stanza)
"That cloud looks so comfy, I think I'll lie down, just for a moment!" - Wicca fae pacify effect thing.
Another High stanza song would be nice for variety.
New Effect:
=-=-=-=-=-=
Convergence - I like the conclave suggestion. I'd say 5p, targets allied/lusted people, song-ender and local area is enough of a limitation and sufficiently different to wiccan conclave.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: Sleep + minor damage if asleep
Gemmed: 50% chance for double sleep
No problems here.
JadeGrazioso:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: 5%(?) health regen only.
Gemmed: 10%(?) health regen only.
Probably the weakest of the bard regen songs when ungemmed, which it will be outside of bashing. I'd leave for usual envoy cycle and focus on changes elsewhere for special report.
CrimsonCourante:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: personal & allies: +bal, -eq
Gemmed: How much faster? Eq malus also increased?
While this is one of those situationally useful songs (loralbard + 5 warriors/monks), I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using this outside of gathering herbs. Though spinning gems for Institute is also on balance.
AureolinAubade:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Low
Ungemmed: 15% chance for lusting
Gemmed: 15% chance for lusting/peace.
Asmodea has the right of it here, does nothing most of the time, and I -think- the peace only hits when the lusting hits, making it lackluster as a gemmed effect too.
ChromaConcerto:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: 10 DMP to fire/cold/electric
Gemmed: 20 DMP to fire/cold/electric
No problems here.
MidnightMinuet:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: Force off balance. (1s)
Gemmed: Force off balance more. (2s)
Standard song effect. No problems here.
FleckedFortissimo:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: Prones
Gemmed: Prones + 50% disrupt focus balance.
Current position of tick (with Blue/Midnight) isn't doing this any favours, and since it doesn't hit with any aff songs, focus balance is back before you notice it was gone.
VioletVibrato:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: Mid
Ungemmed: clumsiness/deadening/dizziness/epilepsy/omniphobia/vapors
Gemmed: (?)% chance for two of above.
Some nice afflictions included, but think I would prefer if they were not all kombu cures, or if the range was expanded to include non-kombu cures, so the affs aren't instanteously cured without a diagnose.
Crescendo:
=-=-=-=-=-
Stanza: Mid
No problems here.
EmeraldGrazioso:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High
Ungemmed: passive curing
Gemmed: +passive curing (is it % chance of curing 2 affs?)
No problems here.
SkySforzando:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High (3p)
Ungemmed: aeon + stun lusted target
Gemmed: double aeon + stun lusted target (ie, break through quicksilver)
Powerful, and what makes balancing the rest trickier. Lust requirement leave glamourists at a distinct disadvantage.
RedRubato:
=-=-=-=-=-
Stanza: High
Ungemmed: Timewarp + scaling damage
Gemmed: Timewarp + scaling damage
If I recall correctly, even when gemmed, a single focus mind is enough to cure the timewarp, so the damage never gets above negligible, and Institute timewarping is a burst thing so, yeah, not fantastic. Maybe leave for envoy cycle though.
ClearCapriccio:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High
Ungemmed: alacrity for allies, song ender
Gemmed: alacrity + some curing for allies, song ender
Report already submitted.
Convergence:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Stanza: High (5p), song ender
Single target 'reality' on sleeping target that also aeon/stuns. Not a fan of griefery 'let's break in' abilities.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Typical Combat Song:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
S1: BlueBerceuse (gemmed - 50% Double Sleep)
S2: AureolinAubade (15% chance of lusting)
S3: JadeGrazioso (minor health regen)
S4: MidnightMinuet (2s off bal)
S5: FleckedFortissimo (sprawl)
S6: VioletVibrato (gemmed - chance of two kombu affs)
S7: RedRubato (timewarp + scaling damage) (Alternate option for gemming)
S8: EmeraldGrazioso (passive curing)
S9: SkySforzando (gemmed - aeon+stun)/Funebre
In Practice:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Song forces this: fall asleep/be sprawled for 1s --> 7s later --> focus mind, eat kombu.
Tarot Loralbard: rub soulless, rub soulless, rub soulless... fling lust, blanknote, sleep hit + aeon/stun song, fling soulless.
ie. primarily tarot, song secures the kill.
Glamour Loralbard: upkeep blanknote/sight, aurics/colourburst/hinder, pray for chance to aeon/stun.
ie. primarily upkeep, pray you get lucky with aeon/double indigo for chance to damage kill.
Problems:
=-=-=-=-=
Low stanzas:
Choice for 3rd stanza is between AureolinAubade and CrimsonCourante, both are lackluster.
Mid stanzas:
No major problems, just tweak FleckedFortissimo.
High stanzas:
- No choice.
- SkySforzando is powerful, but lust req means Glamourists have distinct disadvantage, unlike say a Cantor Glamourist who can aeon at will.
Potential Solutions:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
If removing lusting is on the table:
AureolinAubade: ungemmed: something... maybe daydreaming?
gemmed: keep pacify, maybe improve the 15% rate to encourage variety in gemmed effects.
SkySforzando: ungemmed: aeon/stun
gemmed: aeon/stun + amnesia (not double aeon, no access to anorexia)
If removing lusting is not on the table:
Problem stems from Glamour bards not being able to lust at will. Possibility of a 1/2p new ability in Glamours that lusts? Something like:
"Gazing at you hypnotically, Eritheyl passes a hand in front of his face, revealing himself to be the object of your desires."
New:
=-=-=
CloudCantabile - cloudy terrain song. (probably low stanza)
"That cloud looks so comfy, I think I'll lie down, just for a moment!" - Wicca fae pacify effect thing.
Another High stanza song would be nice for variety.
New Effect:
=-=-=-=-=-=
Convergence - I like the conclave suggestion. I'd say 5p, targets allied/lusted people, song-ender and local area is enough of a limitation and sufficiently different to wiccan conclave.
Eritheyl2012-09-10 13:54:57
BlueBerceuse
I would leave this be, I had another thought for you instead. Though I would prefer other information on it, under skysforzando.
- Request under consideration!
AureolinAubade
3.) This does not help the song really.
- That was a typo, ahem. It should read, 'if the target is NOT already lusted'. Fixing after this.
FleckedFortissimo
2.) Keep current placement, but add a 1s stun if the target is already prone.
Sure
- Yay!
SkySforzando
I was wondering about making this a bit more.... loved. Change having sapphire to strip metawake on the target when used. The stun is probably longer than the recovery time, so when you leave you can use sleep enchant, use mesmerize, etc to strip kafe if you timed it to hit with your song. This would be sleep+aeon lock, which I am not sure how powerful it is for you, it could be crazy powerful (8s insta might be too reliable).
- That might be a BIT much to count on, but added to the list nonetheless.
Convergence
1.) It should charge the power up front, but probably should exempt people already in the bards room. I assume it has a normal delay.
2.) No
- 1.) Agreed on first two points, not so much on the third. I was thinking shorter than average, but still not instantaneous. Maybe...5s
- 2.) Why not?
I would leave this be, I had another thought for you instead. Though I would prefer other information on it, under skysforzando.
- Request under consideration!
AureolinAubade
3.) This does not help the song really.
- That was a typo, ahem. It should read, 'if the target is NOT already lusted'. Fixing after this.
FleckedFortissimo
2.) Keep current placement, but add a 1s stun if the target is already prone.
Sure
- Yay!
SkySforzando
I was wondering about making this a bit more.... loved. Change having sapphire to strip metawake on the target when used. The stun is probably longer than the recovery time, so when you leave you can use sleep enchant, use mesmerize, etc to strip kafe if you timed it to hit with your song. This would be sleep+aeon lock, which I am not sure how powerful it is for you, it could be crazy powerful (8s insta might be too reliable).
- That might be a BIT much to count on, but added to the list nonetheless.
Convergence
1.) It should charge the power up front, but probably should exempt people already in the bards room. I assume it has a normal delay.
2.) No
- 1.) Agreed on first two points, not so much on the third. I was thinking shorter than average, but still not instantaneous. Maybe...5s
- 2.) Why not?
Eritheyl2012-09-10 13:59:41
AurelionAubade - Making it active wouldn't be any use, since its a low stanza song, I would suggest maybe introducing a secondary affliction or effect to it, that would fire if it doesn't lust, so alteast the song does something the other 85% of the time rather than nothing.
- Also fond of this!
BlueBercuese - Fine the way it is, however maybe introduce the kafe strip to hit if they are already asleep aswell as the damage. Maybe also add in a tiredness factor with it too like SeleneLullaby used to. (I miss old Wildarrane :( )
- Hmmm, an attrition factor, or something else? Varying effect -based- on tiredness level, maybe? I like the sound of that, but not for a low stanza song.
RedRubato - Unless it changed from when I was there, I would maybe see about upping the damage it causes, it was pitiful and neglible when I used it. I suggest something started around ~300-400.
- I believe the damage now is in that range for a single timewarp, double checking shortly.
I would also think about introducing a Clouded environment effect, the guild had ideas when I was in it for them, also maybe something that meshes with Institute like Cantors/Angels, Caco/Devil etc etc. The guild had ideas for them too.
- Agreed, still thinking on this one.
- Also fond of this!
BlueBercuese - Fine the way it is, however maybe introduce the kafe strip to hit if they are already asleep aswell as the damage. Maybe also add in a tiredness factor with it too like SeleneLullaby used to. (I miss old Wildarrane :( )
- Hmmm, an attrition factor, or something else? Varying effect -based- on tiredness level, maybe? I like the sound of that, but not for a low stanza song.
RedRubato - Unless it changed from when I was there, I would maybe see about upping the damage it causes, it was pitiful and neglible when I used it. I suggest something started around ~300-400.
- I believe the damage now is in that range for a single timewarp, double checking shortly.
I would also think about introducing a Clouded environment effect, the guild had ideas when I was in it for them, also maybe something that meshes with Institute like Cantors/Angels, Caco/Devil etc etc. The guild had ideas for them too.
- Agreed, still thinking on this one.
Eritheyl2012-09-10 14:28:28
VioletVibrato:
Some nice afflictions included, but think I would prefer if they were not all kombu cures, or if the range was expanded to include non-kombu cures, so the affs aren't instanteously cured without a diagnose.
- Agreed.
If removing lusting is on the table:
AureolinAubade: ungemmed: something... maybe daydreaming?
gemmed: keep pacify, maybe improve the 15% rate to encourage variety in gemmed effects.
- Like.
SkySforzando: ungemmed: aeon/stun
gemmed: aeon/stun + amnesia (not double aeon, no access to anorexia)
- Unfortunately, the double aeon is the only reliable way a Glamourist can hope to actually aeon the target, unless we smash this in twice. I'm not a fan of spending 6p just to aeon, though would side with this if the power cost were reduced (which I don't see happening along with removing lust req.)
If removing lusting is not on the table:
Problem stems from Glamour bards not being able to lust at will. Possibility of a 1/2p new ability in Glamours that lusts? Something like:
"Gazing at you hypnotically, Eritheyl passes a hand in front of his face, revealing himself to be the object of your desires."
- Liking this, may toss to the regular envoy cycle depending on the outcome of the Special.
CloudCantabile - cloudy terrain song. (probably low stanza)
"That cloud looks so comfy, I think I'll lie down, just for a moment!" - Wicca fae pacify effect thing.
- Liking this idea.
New Effect:
Convergence - I like the conclave suggestion. I'd say 5p, targets allied/lusted people, song-ender and local area is enough of a limitation and sufficiently different to wiccan conclave.
- Very good, very good.
Some nice afflictions included, but think I would prefer if they were not all kombu cures, or if the range was expanded to include non-kombu cures, so the affs aren't instanteously cured without a diagnose.
- Agreed.
If removing lusting is on the table:
AureolinAubade: ungemmed: something... maybe daydreaming?
gemmed: keep pacify, maybe improve the 15% rate to encourage variety in gemmed effects.
- Like.
SkySforzando: ungemmed: aeon/stun
gemmed: aeon/stun + amnesia (not double aeon, no access to anorexia)
- Unfortunately, the double aeon is the only reliable way a Glamourist can hope to actually aeon the target, unless we smash this in twice. I'm not a fan of spending 6p just to aeon, though would side with this if the power cost were reduced (which I don't see happening along with removing lust req.)
If removing lusting is not on the table:
Problem stems from Glamour bards not being able to lust at will. Possibility of a 1/2p new ability in Glamours that lusts? Something like:
"Gazing at you hypnotically, Eritheyl passes a hand in front of his face, revealing himself to be the object of your desires."
- Liking this, may toss to the regular envoy cycle depending on the outcome of the Special.
CloudCantabile - cloudy terrain song. (probably low stanza)
"That cloud looks so comfy, I think I'll lie down, just for a moment!" - Wicca fae pacify effect thing.
- Liking this idea.
New Effect:
Convergence - I like the conclave suggestion. I'd say 5p, targets allied/lusted people, song-ender and local area is enough of a limitation and sufficiently different to wiccan conclave.
- Very good, very good.
Daereth2012-09-10 19:31:26
In regards to Skysforzando, I would suggest removing the lust requirement if you can. But don't do anything else to it unless for some ungodly reason you -have- to nerf it.
Common misconception is that you can Skysforzando and have a whole bunch of time to run around in circles, scratch your back, feed your dog and take a nice relaxing bath before the stun time is up. This is a false statement, depending on your race? 90% of the stun time is used up before you regain your ability to do anything. I know as a Trill, I was using Sky and Soulless, I could get a fling in maybe half a second before the stun ended. They'd have to wake up, cure aeon and stand to leave, the only way I could get a kill. What? You've got metawake on? Well, that's just cheating.
As for the lock, you'd have to refrain directly after blue hits as to not reset the timer, assuming it did do double sleep. Blue hits with sleep/strip insomnia, Sky hits aeon + 5 second stun + metawake off, mesmerize strips kafe. Or add in a sleepcloud before sky to strip kafe. Sure, you've got them asleep but since you have no double aeon, you've got no mini-sleeplock. You'd have to throw in a fling aeon and only then if you had tarot. I suppose you could spam deadlypattern, hope they don't notice you strip quicksilver? They will. No aeon, no point.
I went around and messed with amnesiacloud for a while until I came to a sad conclusion that left me feeling betrayed and dirty, amnesia does nothing. And I was attempting it with double aeon. Maybe I was doing it wrong? Doesn't matter, the fact that aeon+stun+amnesia is worse than it's current incarnation is still sound. As are any of the other suggestions and quite honestly, probably any other suggestions that could possibly be made. Conclusion, keep current gemmed effect since buffing the skill is likely impossible.
As for Violet, to expand the list of afflictions is fine, just don't take out the good current ones like vapors/epil/clum. I found that this skill was one of the redeeming qualities of the skillset even if they are all kombu cures.
Blue already kinda? has tiredness attrition, it just takes 30 something doublesleeps to even go down the first level. I'm not sure if you want to go down this route though, see dreamweaving. Possibly even the reason Old Wildarrane isn't old anymore.
If the conclusion in the end is to remove the double aeon, then you might want to take Asmodea's suggestion and revert back to old flecked and make it a high stanza. The only reason we changed it in the first place was that when faced with doubleaeon+stun and prone+stun, the choice was obvious. And making it a high stanza nobody would really use just seemed ridiculous. In hindsight, glamourists might have gotten more action out of the skill in the other incarnation. We might of been a bit too bias.
Common misconception is that you can Skysforzando and have a whole bunch of time to run around in circles, scratch your back, feed your dog and take a nice relaxing bath before the stun time is up. This is a false statement, depending on your race? 90% of the stun time is used up before you regain your ability to do anything. I know as a Trill, I was using Sky and Soulless, I could get a fling in maybe half a second before the stun ended. They'd have to wake up, cure aeon and stand to leave, the only way I could get a kill. What? You've got metawake on? Well, that's just cheating.
As for the lock, you'd have to refrain directly after blue hits as to not reset the timer, assuming it did do double sleep. Blue hits with sleep/strip insomnia, Sky hits aeon + 5 second stun + metawake off, mesmerize strips kafe. Or add in a sleepcloud before sky to strip kafe. Sure, you've got them asleep but since you have no double aeon, you've got no mini-sleeplock. You'd have to throw in a fling aeon and only then if you had tarot. I suppose you could spam deadlypattern, hope they don't notice you strip quicksilver? They will. No aeon, no point.
I went around and messed with amnesiacloud for a while until I came to a sad conclusion that left me feeling betrayed and dirty, amnesia does nothing. And I was attempting it with double aeon. Maybe I was doing it wrong? Doesn't matter, the fact that aeon+stun+amnesia is worse than it's current incarnation is still sound. As are any of the other suggestions and quite honestly, probably any other suggestions that could possibly be made. Conclusion, keep current gemmed effect since buffing the skill is likely impossible.
As for Violet, to expand the list of afflictions is fine, just don't take out the good current ones like vapors/epil/clum. I found that this skill was one of the redeeming qualities of the skillset even if they are all kombu cures.
Blue already kinda? has tiredness attrition, it just takes 30 something doublesleeps to even go down the first level. I'm not sure if you want to go down this route though, see dreamweaving. Possibly even the reason Old Wildarrane isn't old anymore.
If the conclusion in the end is to remove the double aeon, then you might want to take Asmodea's suggestion and revert back to old flecked and make it a high stanza. The only reason we changed it in the first place was that when faced with doubleaeon+stun and prone+stun, the choice was obvious. And making it a high stanza nobody would really use just seemed ridiculous. In hindsight, glamourists might have gotten more action out of the skill in the other incarnation. We might of been a bit too bias.
Unknown2012-09-10 19:39:23
I feel like some of you are taking this opportunity to envoy almost every skill that exists. My recommendation is that you should probably address the skills which actually are terrible instead of the ones that could stand a tweak or two. Many of Ushaara's suggestions about which ones to leave to a standard envoy report are good, for example. Also, RedRubato and VioletVibrato are fine (special report wise); I can see the latter getting envoyed in the regular cycle, where we can discuss its affs, but for the purposes of the special report, I don't think they're the Worst Of Loralaria.
Eritheyl2012-09-10 19:42:07
Note that the main post still contains the five skills that I brought up originally. Everything else is going through my 'maybe later' filter.
I am, of course, scribbling down all of the suggestions.
Edit: Hell, even Flecked can wait for a regular report. I just get antsy when facing the prospect of reporting the same skill twice.
I am, of course, scribbling down all of the suggestions.
Edit: Hell, even Flecked can wait for a regular report. I just get antsy when facing the prospect of reporting the same skill twice.
Malarious2012-09-10 21:28:21
Passive beckon is a huge no. Cantors asked for it, and as an active skill it was rejected. We do not need bards who can force move a room away, especially passively.
Xiel2012-09-10 22:31:54
I'll have to disagree with the idea of introducing passive stun and re-introducing more sleep attrition to the overall skillset of Loralaria. There is no need to introduce more passive stun, and even less need to encourage attrition fights.
Other suggestions will pop up after I'm done analyzing the skillset myself, though a few initial thoughts popped up at first glance.
1) The DMP song is not capable of being utilized in combat because of its placement in the Mid-range - a seeming problem for the Symphonists who look to be stacked heavily in the Mid-stanzas. Thoughts arise of bumping it down to Low where it looks like the Symphonists have room to wiggle around in, but the amount of DMP given by the song would have to be looked at because 10 ungemmed and 20 gemmed is fairly high for a Low song. Could consider 5 ungemmed and 10 gemmed, but again, this is just my initial overlook.
2) If the focus of the skillset is to land aeon long enough for tarot users to Soulless (via sticking lust to SS and sleep with BB), it *looks* like that is already currently feasible, though Glamours Symphonists are left in the dust. You could consider moving Glamours-users to a DiscordantChord focus, instead. This'll alleviate the lust requirement for them, and raise possibilities of altering certain song effects to encourage killing with aurics. Theoretically feasible, but again, needs further analysis for possibility of execution.
3) Convergence looks like a last resort to boot someone who is killing the Symphonist - a largely useless ability in combat when people can just run. In terms of using it to break into places, possible, but seems like a waste. Needs ideas on that front.
4) A terrain song is still lacking, as was already pointed out, but I suggest leaning away from making it a Halli-guild support song as was mentioned a few posts up because RedRubato already fills that slot with timewarp building. I'd say make the cloudy terrain song something that would be useful for the bard themselves as well as their allies instead.
Edit: Forgot to mention other things.
Other suggestions will pop up after I'm done analyzing the skillset myself, though a few initial thoughts popped up at first glance.
1) The DMP song is not capable of being utilized in combat because of its placement in the Mid-range - a seeming problem for the Symphonists who look to be stacked heavily in the Mid-stanzas. Thoughts arise of bumping it down to Low where it looks like the Symphonists have room to wiggle around in, but the amount of DMP given by the song would have to be looked at because 10 ungemmed and 20 gemmed is fairly high for a Low song. Could consider 5 ungemmed and 10 gemmed, but again, this is just my initial overlook.
2) If the focus of the skillset is to land aeon long enough for tarot users to Soulless (via sticking lust to SS and sleep with BB), it *looks* like that is already currently feasible, though Glamours Symphonists are left in the dust. You could consider moving Glamours-users to a DiscordantChord focus, instead. This'll alleviate the lust requirement for them, and raise possibilities of altering certain song effects to encourage killing with aurics. Theoretically feasible, but again, needs further analysis for possibility of execution.
3) Convergence looks like a last resort to boot someone who is killing the Symphonist - a largely useless ability in combat when people can just run. In terms of using it to break into places, possible, but seems like a waste. Needs ideas on that front.
4) A terrain song is still lacking, as was already pointed out, but I suggest leaning away from making it a Halli-guild support song as was mentioned a few posts up because RedRubato already fills that slot with timewarp building. I'd say make the cloudy terrain song something that would be useful for the bard themselves as well as their allies instead.
Edit: Forgot to mention other things.
Eritheyl2012-09-11 01:49:27
1) The DMP song is not capable of being utilized in combat because of its placement in the Mid-range - a seeming problem for the Symphonists who look to be stacked heavily in the Mid-stanzas. Thoughts arise of bumping it down to Low where it looks like the Symphonists have room to wiggle around in, but the amount of DMP given by the song would have to be looked at because 10 ungemmed and 20 gemmed is fairly high for a Low song. Could consider 5 ungemmed and 10 gemmed, but again, this is just my initial overlook.
- Reducing the DMP is not something I'd be overly fond of, though I agree it our mid-stanzas are severely gummed up. Will look for alternate solutions.
2) If the focus of the skillset is to land aeon long enough for tarot users to Soulless (via sticking lust to SS and sleep with BB), it *looks* like that is already currently feasible, though Glamours Symphonists are left in the dust. You could consider moving Glamours-users to a DiscordantChord focus, instead. This'll alleviate the lust requirement for them, and raise possibilities of altering certain song effects to encourage killing with aurics. Theoretically feasible, but again, needs further analysis for possibility of execution.
- It is feasible, but requires a -lot- of luck. I agree that Glamourists should have their focus on damage, and ergo aurics, but have come up with nothing in regards to alternate song effects. Still wracking my brain.
3) Convergence looks like a last resort to boot someone who is killing the Symphonist - a largely useless ability in combat when people can just run. In terms of using it to break into places, possible, but seems like a waste. Needs ideas on that front.
- In order to stick someone competent with sleep, you need to strip metawake, which we simply cannot do. You will also likely need to aeon them in order to have the time to punch out Convergence, which requires either Tarot or 3p. So, Convergence is never going to be used practically by a Glamourist, because it simply isn't possible at the current cost. For these reasons, and indeed what you posted, I'm pushing to have it changed altogether. Thoughts on what's been suggested?
4) A terrain song is still lacking, as was already pointed out, but I suggest leaning away from making it a Halli-guild support song as was mentioned a few posts up because RedRubato already fills that slot with timewarp building. I'd say make the cloudy terrain song something that would be useful for the bard themselves as well as their allies instead.
- My first thought was a boost to rooting, opinions? We've had suggestions tossed around by the guild, but they were...deleted from file when Talan took Envoy. Back to square one!
- Reducing the DMP is not something I'd be overly fond of, though I agree it our mid-stanzas are severely gummed up. Will look for alternate solutions.
2) If the focus of the skillset is to land aeon long enough for tarot users to Soulless (via sticking lust to SS and sleep with BB), it *looks* like that is already currently feasible, though Glamours Symphonists are left in the dust. You could consider moving Glamours-users to a DiscordantChord focus, instead. This'll alleviate the lust requirement for them, and raise possibilities of altering certain song effects to encourage killing with aurics. Theoretically feasible, but again, needs further analysis for possibility of execution.
- It is feasible, but requires a -lot- of luck. I agree that Glamourists should have their focus on damage, and ergo aurics, but have come up with nothing in regards to alternate song effects. Still wracking my brain.
3) Convergence looks like a last resort to boot someone who is killing the Symphonist - a largely useless ability in combat when people can just run. In terms of using it to break into places, possible, but seems like a waste. Needs ideas on that front.
- In order to stick someone competent with sleep, you need to strip metawake, which we simply cannot do. You will also likely need to aeon them in order to have the time to punch out Convergence, which requires either Tarot or 3p. So, Convergence is never going to be used practically by a Glamourist, because it simply isn't possible at the current cost. For these reasons, and indeed what you posted, I'm pushing to have it changed altogether. Thoughts on what's been suggested?
4) A terrain song is still lacking, as was already pointed out, but I suggest leaning away from making it a Halli-guild support song as was mentioned a few posts up because RedRubato already fills that slot with timewarp building. I'd say make the cloudy terrain song something that would be useful for the bard themselves as well as their allies instead.
- My first thought was a boost to rooting, opinions? We've had suggestions tossed around by the guild, but they were...deleted from file when Talan took Envoy. Back to square one!
Unknown2012-09-11 06:33:16
I'd like to first point out that while there's maybe a thematic reason for Low stanza songs to be weaker in effect than Mid stanza songs, there is not any balance reason for that to be the case. You get 3 Low stanza effects and 3 Mid stanza effects and they're all passive effects. Swapping out an effect in the Mid stanzas for an effect in the Low stanzas does not change the overall balance that significantly if you don't do anything to the effects themselves. So, if you're really worried about ChromaConcerto not seeing enough use as a Mid stanza effect, then swap it's position in the skill and in the stanza order for CrimsonCourante as a standard reoirt. Or just leave it alone.
Second, I like the conclave version for Convergence.
With regards to glamours, the Cantors got LightCantata (our passive prone effect) to also hit with confusion/epilepsy on unblinded foes. A simple solution to both your lusting and glamours issue would be to add a 100% lust chance to unblinded enemies onto one of your songs. AureolinAubade fits thematically, so maybe it could replace daydreaming as the gem effect.
Second, I like the conclave version for Convergence.
With regards to glamours, the Cantors got LightCantata (our passive prone effect) to also hit with confusion/epilepsy on unblinded foes. A simple solution to both your lusting and glamours issue would be to add a 100% lust chance to unblinded enemies onto one of your songs. AureolinAubade fits thematically, so maybe it could replace daydreaming as the gem effect.
Eritheyl2012-09-11 11:21:52
A simple solution to both your lusting and glamours issue would be to add a 100% lust chance to unblinded enemies onto one of your songs. AureolinAubade fits thematically, so maybe it could replace daydreaming as the gem effect.
- Hmm. So a 15% chance to lust, 100% chance to lust if opponent isn't blind, when gemmed? Or am I misinterpreting your suggestion :S
- Hmm. So a 15% chance to lust, 100% chance to lust if opponent isn't blind, when gemmed? Or am I misinterpreting your suggestion :S
Unknown2012-09-11 20:29:47
Yep. Ungemmed is 15% chance to lust, gemmed is 15% chance to lust that goes up to 100% if unblind.
Llandros2012-09-11 20:55:21
Even though it causes me soul shredding pain and raiders of the lost ark style face melting agony to agree with other people in any capacity, please, please, please, no moar passive stun.
Also, sleep atrition is no fun. Future generations of halli bards will not thank you when they are always taken down first or if people just refuse to fight them.
I'm still not sure I'd move FleckedFortissimo. If i had a skill that could passively floor an entire room of enemies and keep em there for a second or so my name would be Lllandros the TrampleWhore and all would learn to fear me!
Also, sleep atrition is no fun. Future generations of halli bards will not thank you when they are always taken down first or if people just refuse to fight them.
I'm still not sure I'd move FleckedFortissimo. If i had a skill that could passively floor an entire room of enemies and keep em there for a second or so my name would be Lllandros the TrampleWhore and all would learn to fear me!
Xenthos2012-09-11 21:15:39
100% passive lust rate (even if gemmed / unblind) seems excessively high, especially when you consider that it can stack with love potion...
Even if it doesn't hit every time because the person is still somewhat blind, that's basically forcing Druids / Mages to pick between a demesne or offense. For psionics users that's not as much of an issue, but otherwise...
At most, I'd say 50%... but even that seems really high when added to love potion. :(
Even if it doesn't hit every time because the person is still somewhat blind, that's basically forcing Druids / Mages to pick between a demesne or offense. For psionics users that's not as much of an issue, but otherwise...
At most, I'd say 50%... but even that seems really high when added to love potion. :(
Asmodea2012-09-12 01:42:04
Isn't Pheramones 100% chance to lust with no side effects or conditions other than a locked channel?
