I've never pissed off anyone...I've never even done any kind of pk in my life, unless there's an enemy in the city. But I'm still told no, just because of my city.

I'm with Hayden. Unless I've seen you routinely enslaving furrikin, I'll do any refills you want (only to master, but health, mana, bromide are nice) for herbs and a small bit of gold. I hate to see us already leaning towards Celest, when we have no reason to do so. Just because Magnagora is more often the aggressor towards us doesn't mean that Celest is any better.

Quick summary... when I enter and constantly hear about Visearis specifically attacking in the Ethereal plane, Magnogorans attacking Serenwilders collecting commodities, enslaving furrikin from Estelbar, etc etc etc, but hear nothing of Celest, good or bad, which am I likely to biased against? Actions dictate reactions, it's not some natural progression, it's that one side has been very obviously attacking us.

You may be missing the Point, if Celest had Acknor they'd be enslaving furrikins, if Celest had been repeatedly digged into killing Serenwildes, they would. The point is not that Magnagora is doing it, the point is if Celest was in the same situation, they'd be doing it.

But they're not. Magnagorans are the aggressors at the moment so we will treat tham as such.

I disagree, I don't think Celest would ever specifically aim to control Acknor. And if they did, I think they'd be reluctant about enslaving furrikin at all. As for repeatedly being "digged", I don't know exactly what that means, but if you mean Serenwilde provoked 'em then I think that would only be started due to other previous events.

That said, i'd much rather see a three-way triangle with some actual conflict going on, than a slow movement towards Serenwilde and Celest being happy friends and Magnagora being the problem child. The way things are set up there's an actual reason for Celest to be something at all other than shining and light: the Taint that they released. And I really, really hope that the issues surrounding it are clarified, and that Celest picks some sort of stance that may actually bring it into conflict, rather than settling into the murky depths of vagueness and "we're pro-goodness!" that was the Church of Achaea.

Heh. And what if Magnagora had monopoly on, say, forging? Paladins would be supposed not to piss them off to get weapons?

I think it's funny how serenwilders complain about magnagorans tainting the place, but forgetting the aquamancers' flood has the exact same negative effect on plantlife than the geomancers' taint. Plants die in demesnes, be it water or taint. So if Celest is flooding areas, the plantlife dies. But I forgot serenwilde officially doesn't care for plantlife .. Oops.

That's a rather stupid comparison. What if the dog had not stopped to take a :censor:, would he have caught the rabbit?

And, to reply your illogical statement: We would still piss them off.

The demesnes from Aquamancers slows growth life by half. Taint does alot worse. Go take a peek in Glomdoring.

So what's your point, besides me being stupid and illogical and you being smart?
That it would be acceptable for paladins to piss off forging monopolists and fight without weapons? I find it hard to believe.

Ethereal forests apparently do the same thing. So Seren's do the same thing to themselves.

As for taking Acknor, Celest has a very negative view of attempting to take that village. Even if they did take the village they'd never enslave the furrikins based on their moral high grounds (which, can be very annoying to watch sometimes). It was pretty funny when someone mentioned bringing up taking Ankrag. For some reason Undeath became synonymous with Taint.

The Paladins would not adhere to Magnagora in any circumstance, even if they had the monopoly on forging. It goes against our beliefs and ideals. That's where your illogical, try to consider who you're pitting against one another in examples and that some of us stick to our values, regardless of what hardship may come of them.

It's in close comparison, Davrick, because of the suffering the dwarves there are faced with. The undead dwarves are held into eternity to work there, or until they're freed. It's against us to defend those who would enslave them as such and not in us, morals as you stated, to work them like that. If any Paladin or citizen of Celest can say they'd happily do the aforementioned, they won't stay happy in the city for long.

If we ever took Acknor, or Angkrag, I'd fast be finding a new lifestyle as I'd never defend either place, and I'd still free those dwarves, which would enemy me to the City.

Seeing how you cuss every time you die like you never supposed to, I find it hard to believe you'll accept a disadvantage that'll cause you to die a lot.

Comment on the hypothetical forging scenario: Paladins would be newbie kicking or using Bob's Longswords long before they ever attempted to gain favor with the tainted.

Scythe: Yes, because we should accept dying with open arms and loving acceptance. We die, it upsets us, we let off steam, most of the time we get right back up and go die again. The paladin's code and ideals are what drive them, it's admirable if a bit unconductive to raising in levels.

Rafael: I'm saying that the collective moral high ground would prevent them from taking it. Undeath though doesn't automatically relate to the taint, mainly a schematics thing though. As for taking the villages of either Ankrag or Acknor, Celest could take either city and just willingly allow the slaves to be freed and returned to their home cities. The city itself would still gain power from the native citizens of the villages, but the commodity tithe would be reduced to what the villages made without the slave labor. It would be as if they had seen the Light(for a time at least) and had given up the slaving during their time influenced by Celest?

I bet you'd find breathing a hard concept to understand if it weren't pretty much an automatic body process. But, when I die I do get steamed for a second, though I'm rather calm when I come out at the portal. Count to ten, you know. However, you're still not considering the other outcomes. If we didn't have swords, we'd not be Paladins. We'd be Guardians, the Paladins would not exist.

And Davrick, my problem with that is that if Magnagora attacked one of the villages it's our job to defend them as we promised. I won't defend Acknor or Angkrag. To tell you the truth, and unless the Divine will let us change the entire ideals and actions of these denizens, I'd be damn surprised if I seen a citizen of Celest defending them.. Be kind of disheartening. :/

Silvanus, it seems there is only all or nothing for you. You really expect me to blame someone nowadays for something that happened centuries ago? I am surely not that simple minded. Also, only because I don't blame the people from Celest of today doesn't mean that I trust them. I tend to judge people by their actions, that is why I still do business with Magnagorans as not all of them are thugs, actually it is just a few of them who are. But doing business is one thing, trust is a completely different one.

No, the point is that they haven't done it yet. Once they start doing it, great another point of conflict with another city. I'm all for it. But just doing something because "if things were different they'd do the same thing", it doesn't make much of a motive.

take a peak at glomording?

last time i looked, that place was better cared for than serenwilde... well until recently when someone from either celest or serenwilde overharvested the swamp i was working on.

Also i never heard of the geomancers demense wipping out a big population of herbs in a plane unlike where someone thought it was a good idea to flood the majority of astral... hence... look where are our sparkleberries now? Half of the herbs I plant in the mountains go poof and what do i see... floods...

You know what kills the plants/nature... its the high cosmic/celestial magic...

helpfile quote from help herbs 1
Herbs are very susceptible to elemental magic and will slowly whither in locations where an Aquamancer or Geomancer has established a demesne.

(yeah im just frustrated because someone picked the plants i was using for tests)