You're refusing to see the point, Rafael. You're saying, "Yeah, well, if we could only get swords from our enemies, we'd quit our guild so we don't need them." Serenwilde is Magnagora's enemy.. so should we all quit magnagora and join serenwilde, just so we can have concoctions, throwing RP to the wind? I rest my case.

There are alot of alchemists talking here saying they're willing to fill and refill for Magnagora, and this is with you stating they're your enemies. Really, you're not at a loss here. Between the Paladins and Magnagora, it's an idealistic thing that prevents us from doing it and that's RP. Hell, I thought Visaeris was working on a way to get an alchemist Mother energy so that rogue alchemists could work for Magnagora, that's an RP avenue. What is your misunderstanding of open venures here?

Further, you state very well how much of a stupid comparison that was, so why're you using it as a medium to argue with?

To Alger,

Yes, look in Glomdoring. The present day caretakers of Serenwilde may not be up to your standard of living, versus what Glomdoring has, but that's hardly what matters. So some herbs can't be harvested, and as much as I think that's heartless and thoughtless that anyone would do this to the plantlife, you also need to take into account the state of the forest in other aspects. The Glomdoring is alot less peaceful than the Serenwilde. No small, peaceful animals are allowed to exist there, they were prey and hunted out by the bigger beasts (thorn breasts, lomadores, spiders, etc..) and those listed are all aggressive beasts that've been Tainted. Further, beyond plant life and beasts, the trees and the sentient beings, druids, etc.., that resided there were also Tainted, strewing them beyond their normal composure. Just compare and contrast EVERYTHING in Glomdoring in its Tainted nature to the life that flourishes in the Serenwilde. The Taint would have to be a good side effect for it to be considered over an Aquamancer demesne because simply that an Aquamancer demesne doesn't have the lasting effects the Taint does, especially when its consumed an area, and further I think it's a safe to say we'll be seeing regulations from the Aquamancers to clean up their demesne in respect to this elemental imbalance it puts in the land after done using it.

and that is why i think magnagorans hate celestines so much in an ic perspective...

because to most, automatically tainted means abominations like how Rafael thinks thornbeasts, loads, spiders etc in glomarding are abominations. They were tainted... so what... they changed... so what... does that really mean the tainted are worse off? Change happens all the time and sure the taint is an unnatural catalyst but thats all it is a catalyst to change. Glomording maybe be different, it may look twisted and eerie, but it is far from dead. While Magnagorans thinks the change is evolution and the place is merely the land they were born on, Celestines think just because its taint the later is dirty and evil. So what are Celestines... racists.

So see to me, the demense is actually worse because the taint just forces change while the demense out right kills.

The Taint was created by the Soulless god Kethuru, who wants to destroy Basin of Life.

and it was... as a tool to reach an end... i've always thought it was the "group mind" that was the desired effect of the taint which would lead to the destruction not the mutation itself... the god was building an army that he can control... though yeah i could be wrong

You're pretty ignorant, Alger, really. Silvanus, as you see, can tell you the Taint is bad, stop trying to make it look so damn innocent. Besides the fact that the Taint is an evil obscurity, and while having reasons to hate it merely for what happened with Celest alone, we have many other reasons that cause us to hate it. You name one of the best. It causes an unnatural change to the environment it consumes. We all to date learn to use surrounding resources with care so that they still survive. The Taint, as I said, deforms that which it infects, taking it from its natural state. These are NOT positive side effects to any but the infected, it's a disease, not a boon to life, this backed up simply by its original intent by Kethuru with the eventuality of life force destruction. As for the demesne, yes, that's why the Aquamancer will DISSOLVE it when done to prevent the life from being destroyed over time. I repeat, it's safe to say, just by the morals of the Aquamancers and Celest, we will see rules and regulations regarding this from the Aquamancers.

Lets put it this way, as many people had a hard time accepting this on Aetolia:

There is no such thing as Freedom in Lusternia, finding nice things about them would be going against your very being (assuming you are tainted and the nice person would be the Celestian). If you are of Magnagora or of the Viscanti race, you are Tainted, you are from then on considered 'darkness' and should be hated by Celest, because the Tainted are tools of Kethuru, we were made to dominate life in the Basin of Life. Failure to do that would be the end of our existance.

This really seems to have degenerated into an ic discussion, or very nearly one.

What I find disappointing is that I was told oocly by Serenwilders that the commune hated cities generally, but now it seems that's not the case. Sure, if they're having more trouble from Magnagora at this point, it makes sense that they'd be more antagonistic with that city...but that doesn't mean they should cozy up to Celeste. I'm not saying this is happening, I'm just saying I see a lot of danger there. There's a risk that Serenwilde is going to end up allying with the "good" city just to get at the "bad" city. Everyone seems to be so trained to view things in black and white, good and evil...haven't people learned yet that things aren't that simple? Life isn't that flat and unrealistic, and conflict in this game ought to be more than Taint v. nontaint, especially considering two things: 1, Serenwilde isn't supposed to be the commune of light and 2, it seems clear that things were coded so that not just Magnagora could be pinned as "nature-killers." Yet this is happening anyway...

It's really too bad that after all the care that was taken to balance things, and try to revise the way the forestal-protection system works (as opposed to other IRE games), the coders STILL gave a light-leaning forestal group a skill monopoly. And as was pointed out, it's an even bigger skill monopoly than in other IRE games. At least in Achaea, you can't get enemied to oakstone and have your concoctions cut off unless you actually DO something. Here it's not POSSIBLE to be a rogue and still use alchemy.

I just don't want to see a situation where Celeste and Serenwilde are more or less permanently allied, and Magnagora has to choose between kissing Serenwilde's butt (ie no conflicts/war/attacks even by individual citizens) or not having access to alchemy products. I have already heard at least one threat of alchemy ban due to the actions of one Magnagoran citizen...it's a little early for this rot to be starting, isn't it? If Serenwilde is going to make believe they are living in Achaea, my advice to Magnagora would be to crush them hard and fast- taint every room in the Serenwilde on a daily basis and beat Serenwilde down so low that it doesn't have the confidence or the resources to fight properly. I think the Achaean experience demonstrates that when people start shrieking about herb bans, your two choices are to roll over and play dead, or to stop-punch them.