A great idea by one promblem: Very easily abused, lets say Y is a suspect of A, and A attacks X. Assuming X-Y are the same city, then Y has to be in the same room as X, and he loses suspect on A, and is able to attack A. Also the same thing with the Ally idea. I'd rather do this: Assuming X-Y attack A-B, Y and X both attack B, because X is a suspect of A. If A attacks Y, while X is in the grou pf Y, then suspect is lost. (An idea would to add a group command, where you could group people who are following you, but only works on fellow guildmates/citymates).

Its hard to see what side of this im on, i -definatly- like the avenger system as is, and truthfully, i dont have a problem with a pk (morso) oriented mud, especially since the way most of the realm is setup (the constant fights over land) pk is going to have to be pretty common.
I'd hate to see this degenerate down into issues, I personally hate the issue system and its readily abusable setup. (not saying this one isnt at this point, but they're still workin) I'm normally not a large pk player, though the atmosphere in this one actually has me feeling an urge to run in and start fighting, and why not, theres quite a few oppurtunities to do so between village defence and retailations.
Theres lots of talk of this is "becoming a pk mud", i see theres alot, but is this a bad thing? Sure if its populated with the archetypical kill everything and everyone "assholes" , but i like the thought of my actions can get me killed, if i go and mouth someone off (yah i know its harsh administrative problems deterimning this) that person can kill me, Actions vs reactions, watch what you say, who you hang out with and where you go, and accept the risks involved in each. If I started spending time shouting off insults towards (insert city, guild, or person here) I personally expect to start creating an animosity within that group, and they're gonna wanna kill me, if i start hanging out with someone who's raiding or just raiding, the "victims" of that case are going to start looking at me as a suspect too, if i start hanging out in a rival village, im going to start getting watched.
Actions have consequences, and the only consequence (without going overboard) that most worry about is death.
I suppose in the end im just happy at this point its a simple entity dealing with the "justice" of the realm, and not me needing a lawyer degree to read through a half dozen pages, hope ive interpretted right, and then have an administrator thats not having a bad day, if i (on the rare occation) feel the need to kill someone for something.

Graal

I've said it before, no pk system has worked better then Imperian's that I've seen. Pk isn't even rampant there, but if you give someone a reason to kill you, they can, period. One thing I dislike about the Avenger system, is if someone is a Champion for their guild, and someone else has been chasing down their members and killing them, you kill them once. Then they continue their actions, and you cannot even defend them, else they will simply call the Avenger. I'd like to see, some command or some such, to give your Suspect away, to your Champion. Say, Guildmember A is killed by Outsider B, Guildmember A can choose to give the suspect to his or her Guildchampion, who may then kill the person. If Guildmember A is attacked again, he won't be able to call the Avenger, since he already forfeited the Suspect to his or her Guild Champion.

Though, I still think Imperian's pk system works the best. And as for Achaea? I pray I don't see a complex codex of rules regarding cause and all that nonsense, for every scenario, with people saying "I have PK on you." I HATE people who say PK, it is so out of character to do so.

Oh, for your viewing pleasure, Imperian's HELP PK file.

The emotional response and drama created from the possibility of one character
killing another is unsurpassed in Imperian. Without this level of involvement,
Imperian would not be the rich and realistic world that it is. Death is hardly
a permanent thing, but the risk of it makes the game entertaining on many
levels, and more importantly, opens up huge areas of roleplay for those wishing
to pursue a darker lifestyle. In turn, those wishing to pursue a lifestyle to
counter this are given more opportunities, and so on.

The Gods benevolently provide a means by which you can avoid all hostile
activities, although we suggest you give them a try at least once. Please see
HELP GRACE.

In an effort to enhance the freedom of roleplay in the game, we deliberately do
not set out hard and fast laws to govern player killing. The following rules
and guidelines apply to those wishing to partake in the roleplay of attacking
and killing other characters:

1) Killing for roleplay reasons is permitted, and the only acceptable reason for any killing in Imperian. Those characters with a consistent roleplay and for any killing in Imperian. Those characters with a consistent roleplay and decent character history will be seen as more reliable when it comes to issues of trust with the Administration. The onus is on you as a player to show that your character is killing for a good roleplay reason. Killing just because you are a 'pschyo mad killer' is likely to get you in trouble. Do not kill someone repeatedly (more than once) for one reason. If you still need to damage a character, try politics or something other than killing.

- Killing someone because they are slaughtering innocent villagers (NPCs) in a local village is absolutely good roleplay. UNLESS you then go and kill those same villagers yourself just for 'good experience'. Infact, this sort of inconsistency is likely to bring down the anger of the Administration.

2) A real life day is an Imperian Month. Killing after several RL days have passed since the incident which would have caused your character anger is frowned upon. It would need to be a very big reason to still want your enemy dead after several months. Do not be surprised if you are punished by Administrators for breaking this obvious rule.

3) Players who have developed a background and history (HELP BACKGROUND, HELP HISTORY) that shows why they would be killing certain people for doing certain things will be seen as far more reliable than those who have not. We do maintain decent records of how well you roleplay in your everyday life.

- If you tell us your character claims to hate dwarves, why should we believe you unless you can show us that he always has?

4) PK is one of a number of viable ways to resolve something. If you are continually finding yourself resorting to violence to resolve problems, you can be sure that the Administration will have noticed too. PK-ing from the moment you log in, to the moment you log out, is hardly good roleplay at all. Indeed, if it is decided that you do less roleplay than killing, you will be punished for killing. Once again, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE YOU ARE ROLEPLAYING OUT A CHARACTER.

5) When an Admin makes a decision regarding PK, it is final. The Administration are not similar to the in-character Gods of the realm. The Admins are here as entirely OOC entities to resolve your problems when you cannot do so for yourself. Therefore, your God may well encourage you to kill your enemies, but they will also expect you to stick to the guidelines here. When deciding on an issue, the Admin in question will not care about which city your character lives in, or who your characters friends are. They care only for fairness and
equality. They will take your (administrative) history into account. Every situation is different, do not expect Administration to rule the same way over two incidents that although similar, involve different people or different circumstances.

NOTE : In Imperian, one does not "Gain PK" on someone. Nor do we have a system of "PK tokens" like some games. In Imperian, you are expected to behave and roleplay like an Adult, with sensibility and rationality. If the moment when your character may wish someone dead has passed, then move on. Clinging to the idea of a 'free kill' will be noticed by the Administration and is likely to get you punished. Doing something stupid is also likely to get you punished - try not to be stupid!


And that's pretty much it, there were a few other posts by Avasyu on announce, saying how you could kill anyone, as long as you had a valid roleplayed reason to do so. No one ever seems to issue anyone, because the rules are simple and understood, and novices are left alone. Also, there have been quite the lengthy discussions on their forums as to why the system of PK works, and why Achaea's complex legalistic system fails in many aspects.

First off, I'd like to say - I think the Avenger system is great, and personally, I haven't had any trouble - and yes, I have been involved in PK (character is Gelthrae).
I think a lot of people need to accept that just because this isn't a PK-only MUD doesn't mean that they should be able to be safe simply because they don't engage in PK. Lusternia IS a dangerous place. The point of having cities, organisations, guards, etc is to try to ensure the safety of inhabitants.

I think that if the bugs and minor problems with how vengeance is gained get sorted out, it is a fair system - it allows people to enjoy the combat aspect of the game and still face consequences. And others who do not wish to be a part of it must still face the reality of living in a dangerous place, without being subject to unfair overkill.

Please don't scrap the system, whatever you do!
Sorry I don't have any technical input into the system about difficulties with Vengenace being gained, but I just wanted to make sure the Pro-Avenger voices are heard!

One brief idea, though - has anyone thought over the possibility of a non-fatal 'vengenace' system? Whereby a player with 'vengeance' (obviously the term would be changed to reflect that) on another has protection or some sort of grace against them. Or, the player that has vengeance against them is weakened in PvP combat or something.

My mildly unsorted thoughts, anyway.
Keep it up, Estarra and co. You're doing an excellent job.

I very much agree with this. I find the follow=group system of Lusternia very irritating. You should continue to follow group leaders if you leave the room, as well.

Agreed.

The only reason people want issues back is so they can HURT the one they want revenge on more than with just exp loss, they want them shrubbed, highdisfavoured, peaced, muted, deleted, permashrubbed. You killed me? HA! I'll get you SHRUBBED! So many people that trip on using issues as their weapon. Exp loss is not enough, you'll burn!...if you read some of the replies, you can tell who these people are. This kind of attitude is ugly, but completely common in achaea, there's topics in their forums where they proudly admit it one by one.

I don't think we'll have to worry about PK rules developing in Lusternia, there is alot more open ideas to remedy the situation, one including just ignoring those begging for it, in whatever sense they do so. Just keep a fairly level head about killing, how someone above mentioned theirs not rampant pk in Imperian, and we'll never have to worry about it.

As for the Avenger system.. Yup, it's got good purpose for an alternative to pk, I just think a few things might've been overlooked that Dumi mentioned. I like Dumi's ideas, they're good alternatives for alot of the issues, and I hope we see some of them put in. I'm rather grumpy about getting vengeance stuck on me for attacking people trying to influence villages, chasing others out of Southgard, group team defence, etc..

Two idea for short-term development of Avenger system:

1. Avenger shouldn't protect you N minutes after leaveing enemy territory. That'll prevent people from running in village/city, messing there and quickly running out to hide behind Avenger.

2. Make unfluenced villages Avenger-free zones just like planes. They're battlegrouds where group combat often erupts.

Quoted for truthery.

The Avenger needs tweaking...but it's good. Please please don't get rid of it!

Also, another thought, why does Avechna protect certain people exactly? For example, I know Visaeris doesn't use the system and prefers to get his own revenge, but why would the Avenger even protect him in the first place? People who go about, rampantly killing others, or have committed multiple violent acts, shouldn't be protected by Avechna in return. Perhaps, if you are suspect to a certain amount of people, the Avenger will refuse to heed your call, or some other more complex extrapolation of this concept. Another thing that bugs me, say hypothetically if a Guild Champion is suspect towards someone. That someone comes in, and attacks a member of the Champions guild right in front of him. He can either stand there, or help. Of course, to insure his own guildmate doesn't die, he defends him, and slays the attacker, yet now Avechna can be called TWICE on him? Hardly seems right.

I love the Avenger system. I think it's a very creative solution to a serious problem. I would be very unhappy if we went the way of PK rules because they don't work, though I am happy to hear that insults aren't considered sufficient justification.

The basic problem that I feel the Avenger addresses is this: When the people who get their joy from just killing anyone they want for any reason they want are not controlled, they end up being the ones who decide what someone's personal experience in Lusternia is. They end up being allowed to make someone else's life miserable without recourse.

Since Lusternia wants to encourage people to actually roleplay, instead of treating the realm like a first person shoot-em up game, there must be allowances made for those individuals who do not want to engage in much killing in order to focus on developing other parts of their lives.

Because combat in Lusternia is incredibly complex and rich, it takes a lot of time, energy, money, and effort to become good at it. Not everyone has all of those resources to spend on it, and not everyone *wants* to spend their resources on developing a fantastic combat system in order to ensure that no one picks on them. It appears to be a basic premise in the world that not everyone should have to do this.

If you're going to accept this premise, then the people who don't want to, and who aren't expected to, need protection from the inevitable clot of idiots who are only looking for excuses to kill other players.

There is, however, a third group in between these two extremes. The people who are good at/enjoy PK, but who do so with a strong adherance to the idea of roleplay. They get into the conflicts that arise naturally because of the set up between Taint and Not-Taint, and they fight each other.

I have a feeling that the primary problem people have with it is the "abuse" being perpetrated by individuals who involve themselves in natural, RP conflicts, who then use the Avenger against those who were fighting them appropriately (ie, for valid, RPed reasons).

I like the idea of an "opt-in" system where people can eschew the Avenger if they want, though I don't know that it will address this "abuse" problem.

I despise the complexity of the PK rules in Achaea. Anyone want to hire a lawyer to interpret those before you consider hunting down your enemies? (Nimby joked about it, but it's absolutely true.)

The Avenger is great, and we all know that with a little tweaking it will be even greater.

I've seen the 'opt-in' systems in games like EverQuest (not a game I play, mind you) and the only problem I see with that is the division it creates in the playerbase. In Achaea, I've been a peaceful merchant for most of my life, only fighting when others provoked me. I have always found the fighting system incredibly intriguing and I love the challenge, but some days you just want to relax and not get into the heat of a battle.

To everyone who says they want to play an IRE game and don't want to fight, I would say that you're missing out on 90% of what these games are about. You want to be a merchant? What do you buy with your gold, if not for use in combat? Clothes and food? Not very exciting. The game gets a whole lot more interesting when a majority of the population joins the fights and we ALL go at it together. Even the greatest fighters can't fight all your fights for you, and it's discouraging and/or frustrating when those you fight for are just apathetic chatterboxes with no discernable roleplaying goals.

Sorry for the tangent! Let's keep the Avenger and just encourage/enforce good roleplaying with the PK!

I think that no matter how you tweak the Avenger system, there will always be a way to circumvent it to gain an advantage.

My biggest problem with the avenger is that a guildmate of mine currently has vengence on me. This is because I helped him Reincarnate, and then later he was being attacked and asked for a summon to be rescued. Also, people are finding so many loopholes around the avenger its being disheartaning, and not just because they find these loopholes but also because generally the "cure" to the loophole affects the skills more than it affects the avenger. For example, summoning, or anything that makes a person change rooms.
I'm almost willing to suggest that summon only work on allies, instaed of all these covoluted situations where summoning is used.

If theres one thing I know about game players, they will find loopholes to any system. But I like the idea of the avenger.

But I feel if you really wanted the prime plane to be PK free, you wouldn't make so much of the villages be reliant on violence. I think it would be better if your influence skill was used in villages, both in briging dwarves around and such, and that PK had no say in the matter. So instead of killing villagers, a player just makes them paranoid so they don't work. Or you used secudtion to make them follow you to the next village etc.

I think this could be fixed, and be rather nice if you didn't gain suspect or vengeance, or have pk careful effective, on those who're on your ally list or apart of an official organization you're in. Cities, guilds, cartels, and orders, namely.



The problem with that is it relies awhole lot on your influence skill, and alot of us simply don't have the credits to learn it, putting others far ahead of most of the community. Besides, where would we be without hack and slash? I'd have no place in the world!

Theres plenty of room for hack and slash in other areas of the world. Some people spend 900 credits on their guild pvp skills, having others spend 300 on their influence skill and having their own power and awe would be nice also. And you don't have to trans influence to be good at it, it just makes it easier having more attacks to switch between.

I would love to hear, OMG Snuggleboots can INF a village in 5 min flat! He's such a creditwhore!

Jeez, who drops 900 for pvp skills alone? =/ I only have 100 in myself, and I thought I was a fair nuisance.

But it would come to the eventuallity that those without credits to learn the better influence skills won't be able to stand up to their peers or foes in relation to skill, that'd be disheartening.

Anyways, heh.. yeah.. go Snuggleboots.

The problem with letting allies get a pass is that there are skills that force yourself on people's allies list.