Hayden now is stocking all potions or as many as he can when I actually get home from this 13 hr shift, possibly tomorrow though since itll be late.

Well, the problem with Harvesting is overharvesting. Simple. Like daganev said, in other realms there is more "political" control from organizations relating to herbs. Also, most of the harvesters in those other realms are also able to make elixirs. Harvesting here doesn't need an item to harvest, it is already too competitive for most people actually make a profit from it. At the begining, herbs ranged from prices between 6 gold-8gold depending on the rarity, now that people have bulk herbs gathered, and harvest more, they can actually demand any price they want from buyers. Organizations like Oakstone, etc, came to be because it is an obvious necessity to be able to manage what is the trade most in demand. I mean, some people can be without armour, but not without elixirs nor herbs. If in Lusternia people were actually able to regulate herbs, the herbs would be ensured to keep on growing rather than diminishing altogether the herbs and thwartting everyone's attempt on joining said Market.

What is great of Lusternia is that every organization, if a person chooses to learn Lowmagic, can have harvesters. So if an organization of harvesters/alchemists organized, it would be much more equalized than in other realms and less prone to fall onto monopoly and extortion of the organization to other groups (i.e. Achaea- the common herb bans against Mhaldor, though ineffective it is a good example). Also, if like daganev suggested, there were a skill on lowmagic to check the people who last harvested this area, someone could keep control. BUT, if an organization had said power and the ability to BAN (actually prevent from harvesting) any overharvester, things would be different. People wouldn't be able to demand whatever price they want, because prices would be established by an overall organization, there would be herbs available to everyone, prices would be low enough so that the idea of elixirs produced at lower expense thus ensuring greater availability could be contrived.
So, within this organization actually every institution/organization/etc. would have a say on how things are run. As for punishments for overharvesters, not being able to harvest at all, unless they pay a fine or serve service to nature by replanting hefty areas is enough punishment. If not, the organization could always send representatives to punish said overharvester.

"Harvesting here doesn't need an item to harvest, it is already too competitive for most people actually make a profit from it."

Ok no offence Desdemona, but too many people do this to for me not to comment on it.
The basis of my argument, if you actually read it instead of looking for key words that you have allready attached your own meaning to, Is:

Because there is no item for Harvesters, There is too much competition, and many get screwed.

Reread my forging example.. You can picture it for any trade. This is why governments and societies tend to force high market entry costs if they would otherwise not exist.

Daganev,I believe I understood your point... Basically you are saying, that by making harvesting more complex there would be less people harvesting. Now, you should perhaps evaluate my point. My point is: that if an organzation had control on overall harvesting, no such item would be needed. The competitive would be balanced, and at the very least herbs would be allowed to grow more rapidly. Prices would be set at a general price, so no one would be able to demand more than what is worth.


EDIT: Just wanted to add another point. Seeing how anyone who chooses to learn Lowmagic, be it from Celest or Magnagora or Serenwilde...could harvest, said organization wouldn't be able to reach favoritism/ban a specific group. By the way, as to risks... if any harvester failed to follow parameters set by this global organization, the risk would be that said harvester could loose his trade altogether unless they remedy whatever they did (overharvest, or claim extremely higher prices than those established). Also, there could be the risk factor of people who are caught abusing harvesting, that in fact, said person could be killed by members of the herbal organization. So, the catch is: be a conscious harvester and retribute to nature an others the benefits of our trade or loose the ability of our trade and suffer any other consequences. This would require politics, and politics is a very lethal poison.

I am a harvester, most of you know me. In my eyes the main problem with alchemy is the insane amount of herbs it needs to make a potion. My suggestion would be to either reduce the amount, especially rare herbs like horehound or, which I would like even more, if you would be able to use a different herb for the same effect. For example, either use horehound or the substitute herb galingale. It is just an example. An additional tweak could be that when you use galingale instead of horehound then maybe the quality of the potion would be less, either in giving less sips or in curing less health, maybe 20% less or something.
I think the harvesters are dependend enough on the other trades. Herbs are nice but they alone get you only that far, for every halfway serious fighting, bashing, whatever you need alchemists. I also think that after the initial opening weeks the prices for herbs have generally become very moderate, no more sparkleberries for 600 gold each at peak times.

your right, a political orginization would have the same affect, except what would this political orginization be?
Forestals are not protectors of nature, the only other similar political structure are cartels, and a cartel gives you benefits that another cartel does not have. Even then they can't kick me out.

No, trade appears to have been desinged to be free of politics outside of your group of people who work together.
Also, the problem is not with the people who are reasonable and work together and sacrifice a little for the sake of everyone, your problem are the people who do not care what others think.

Also, less harvesters is only a small aspect of it. I think the amount of harvesters would be the same, only the amount they harvest will be less -And- there will be more respect and introspection into how much they sell and at what price.

If a Herbalist/Alchemist organization existed, this would gather both harvesters andd alchemists in a single place. This would be clearly helpful to try mantain order, set prices, and ensure a more regular availability of our trade items. The organization would be in general supervision of prices, herb consumption and present availability. So, this would keep a control on anyone who practices either trade. Always preventing absurd prices for public use, ready availability of herbs for elixirs, and overall population of herbs.

As for forestals, we are protectors of Nature, or at least because we are in constant interaction with it and are against the raising civilizations to cities, we become self-proclaimed protectors of Nature and try to find ways to ensure Nature's fertility and survival.

You fail to see something, daganev, even when trades seem to have no "politic" control over those people outside your trade. This is a misconception. By simply placing a set prices of the items produced, by trying to control what aspects of the trade will serve the public (i.e.- jewelers refusing gemcutting for the non-jewelers), a control over the public is made. Why? In expectation of trying to protect the trade, and also trying to ensure benefit to those within the trade. So whatever regulations, etc., that are made within the different Cartels in regards of their current trade will always have some sort of politics that may have a direct/indirect impact on the public.

As for the problem being the amount of people who don't care what others think, and whatever that may entitle... that kind of people may ruin the work of those "who are reasonable and work together and sacrifice a little for the sake of everyone". Especially on trades without any control over the practitioners of said trade, like Alchemy and Herbs. So, rather than viewing a Alchemy/Herbalist organization as a Cartel (we clearly do not need all the functions a cartel brings, because we have no real items to designed, unless we could designed new herbs), you should view said group as a syndicate. A group trying to organize and work ways that instead of making general commerce a hassle, make it more fluid for the public and less of a burden for the practioners of the Herb/Alchemy trade.

As for how a possible added complexity, being a form of item or whatever, would affect the herb trade... I am positive most people view this as a free trade, that you just wander and pick herbs, that we do not depend on other trades. This isn't not so. Sure, we can only pick the herbs but only when they are available. One cannot entirely subsist with herbs alone. Our trade is in direct connection with Alchemist, they need our herbs for their potions and herbalist NEED their potions. Also, herbalist can't wear plants as armour, so we require of the forgers for their trade, and so on. Be sure, that whatever improvement and instrospection that might be applied by people when harvesting, allowing consumption of such herb to be moderate, both when selling and the actual act of harvesting, this can easily be undone without any kind of support. Basically, here is an scenario: Let us say Y person keeps on harvesting galingagle until he has 3000 of it. Upon reaching this point he feels content with the amount of herbs he possesses so stops harvesting in bulk for a while (or harvesting entirely), so he proceeds to sell his herbs at whatever price he sees fit (it may be cheap, seeing how a considerable amount of wares even for cheap can give you good earnings). He may also start replanting, etc, ensuring that his trade remains without flaw. BUT, once his wares are spent. He may once again fall onto a pattern that deteriorates any effort he was making trying to preserve his trade. So problems like overharvesting could happen sporadically, especially if there is no control whatsoever on harvesting. There would end up being a routinized end result... a period when herbs may be harvested by many others where due to the collective availability of herbs prices would remain in a competitive margin, and a period of overharvesting where the beneficiaries would be limited and prices be in constant change. What impact would a worldwide organization have on this pattern? It will make it unlikely to occur. Because said organization would be able to oversee the trade closely, in every aspect. By generally creating flexible guidelines and prices, the trade would be fluid and affordable by anyone.

EDIT: So would an added complexity to harvesting have an impact on the amount of people that engage on said trade? Maybe, maybe not. Though I doubt it. A way to control the trade would neither, everyone who chooses to be a herbalist could still do so, with the only difference that there would be a control on prices, and a constant assurance that the herbs will be there. Also, try to take into account how time consuming can it be to harvest... travelling around trying to find herbs, and spend a good amount of time picking plants one by one. Harvesting is already a difficult trade, and an unrestrained competitiveness is prone to affect the entire market.

One rogue would ruin that whole thing, personally if a "syndicate" existed I would have a rogue herbalist undersell and theres really nothing we could do, no one owns the herb.

Even if someone tries to undersell any organization, said organization could try to undersell said rogue. Or at least we would still be able to amass more herbs than any individual could. So, in the end we would have more wares to sell. Also, seeing how part of the syndicate's task would be to prevent overharvesting (with possible skills to see who has harvested a room, and a BAN on Hebs preventing a herbalist to harvest because she/he wouldn't be able to pick the plants), even said rogues would at least have to respect any set herb limit, or suffer the consequences of using his trade unwisely.


EDIT: I wish to stress something. ANYONE who learns Lowmagic can learn Herbs. So such organization could have people of Magnagora, Celest, Serenwilde, rogues... So things like bans, and a monopoly set by a single group would not occur. Because any herbalist who joins this group is obliged to make what is best for their respecive groups of origin.

Or you could just form a group to guard a certain area for overharvesters, if you catch one, kill him, there should always be someone that isn't a bully on the overharvester's pk status. There aren't -that- many overharvesters, if the few that do, die everytime, they'll consider quitting it, I'm sure. I doubt most Lusternians want an Oakstone-variant in their realm to rain down forest's wrath on anyone that hurts a tree. Some of the Ur'Guard already started that by the way .

Some herbs only grow on certain areas, and said areas can extend for miles. So being furtive enough would allow someone to sneak past "guards" and overharvest somewhere else. And overharvesting can haven periodically, not entirely constant. For example, right now you can probably see a moderate amount of arnica growing, but two-three years from now, arnica would be null. Also, even when they may be few peole,that entirely by themselves, strip areas clean... A group of harvesters may serve the same function. Let us say that out of 60 herbs someone harvests 30, then another 20, then another 5... and so on until a room reduces to 0. The same result would be obtained, an overharvest. Maybe not by a single individual but by a group. If there is a control margin, and a support on said margin, overharvesting completely would be unlikely to occur. Besides, people in an organized collective could amass to replant, etc.

Now, I've only played Achaea prior to this...but I can't imagine an IRE game giving a random pseudocartel a worldwide ability to just BAN people from harvesting altogether. Why bother making herbs overharvestable in the first place? That they can be overharvested is an interesting and conflict provoking fact.

There is no grand forest protectorate, and absolutely NO reason to give ANY mortal the power to entirely disable someone's trade skillset.

Well even in places like Achaea you could get Oakstone enemied for overharvesting, and the forests do have their own defence mechanisms. So being able to allow someone, thanks to an ability, who harvested within a room would be great. And furthermore, preventing a specific individual from harvesting is feasible. Just consider it as Nature not allowing a banned individual from favouring from Nature's bounty... rather than Nature giving them a taste of their wrath by having the herbs/trees attacking a person. Though, if you keep insisting this BAN power is too much... by simply allowing this "pseudocartel" the ability to check harvested rooms, and who harvested what... they could take more direct and simple actions against the individual by hunting them down and enemying them... considering them as a threat to Natures' stability.

Nope.

Heh, it is possible. Hey, even by someone overharvesting can prevent a group from acquiring herbs (since there are no herbs to harvest)... why couldn't this work on the inverse? Especially if said group had the skills and the control to do so. An Organization skill named BAN: Convince nature from preventing (person) from harvesting entirely, thanks to their lack of discipline and obvious greed. Or, like I said before... simply check on a room, see who overharvested by seeing a "herblog" then a hunt begins.

I stand my point, if an organization between Alchemist and Herbalist came to be, prices and herb availability wouldn't be a problem because there would be a control over it.

I'd prefer to see adjustments made to the harvesting and brewing code than handing over the power to ban to a group of players. Lusternia has finally begun to break the IRE tradition of giving players absolute control over anothers gaming experience, and I hope to see them continue this, not veer back towards it. I've already been cast out of my guild in extremely dubious circumstances. In any of the other realms I would have lost class, but thankfully I am able to continue on my chosen path. The thing is, other players will not always make carefully considered decisions, often choices are made based on emotions.

Getting back to my initial idea now. Alchemists are 100% dependant on herbalists (well aside from mercury, sulfur and salt) basically the herbalists have our balls in a vice (figuratively speaking of course) what other trades depend 100% on another for supply of their raw materials? I would like to see us being say 70% dependant on herbalists and the other 30% self reliant. Being able to harvest some of our own ingredients won't hurt the herb trade one bit. They still have a market for their herbs in the edible cures area, which EVERYONE needs anyway so they won't be losing out on anything. If the alchemists can use things they gather themselves then potions will no longer be waiting on the supply of horehound to increase and will be more freely available

I reiterate the part of my post where I mentioned there is no grand forest protectorate. There IS no 'nature incarnate' a la Gaia upon whose authority anyone can claim all of nature as their domain. Certainly, the idea that a random group of berry pickers has the authority to dictate (capital)Nature's Will is absurd.

I don't oppose an ability that would let, say, lowmagicers see who last harvested. Nor do I oppose organizations enforcing the unspoken rule of courtesy not to overharvest.

I don't know how this ability works in IRE games, never having played a forestal at all...seems like you would need to be able to see last harvester for plants that are harvested to zero too, wouldn't you? Or maybe when its harvested, there would be an item of 'dead X plant/shrub/tree/root' in the room (unmoveable) for Y months before it decayed...All of this sort of stuff is an IC mechanism for dealing with overharvesting...

A random unilateral and unavoidable BAN by a cross-cultural and cross-political group with no Nature divine to back them doesn't have any IC justification that I can see.

Herbalist depend 100% on available herbs. Not every herbalist count with an adequate number of herbs to make commerce, this makes alchemy at a fall. Why? Because those who do have the herbs, as Tsigany so tactfully said... herbalist would have alchemist by the balls in a vice. But only a few harbalist who are overharvesting. This could be changed if more herbalist had an enough amount of herbs. Let us say that at a an uncontrolled environment an Alchemist could only approach 4 overharvesting herbals for the herbs needed for elixirs... this would create the scenario where the alchemist would basically have to bleed for their elixirs to be made. Wherease if you regulate herbs, and an Alchemist can approach 15 herbalist (organized), an alchemist would have greater chances of comming accross herbs and at more decent prices. Why? Because herbs wouldn't be controlled by very few, and a greater range of herb merchants means a greater increase of better prices from anyone that engages in commercial competitiveness. Example: Herbalist A sells things at 10gp per, Herbalist B sells at 11gp, Herbalist C at 9, and Herbalist D wanting to sell lower than ABC will sell at 8. Instead of Alchemist A knowning only Herbalist A who sells at amount x whatever herbs he/she has.

And, I wish to point something. There is control over commerce here. Cartels can dictate how their members trade, try to control their trade, etc. Also, in Lusternia the cites and all depend on the commerce between their cities and protectorate states for the comms. As for nature having no protectorate... no need, if you protect nature you are basically protecting the environment, resources, etc. And these things extend to wherever sentient life is. BUT, if you want to consider villages as protectorate states, don't forget Estalbar, it is basically a mini-commune sprouting from what Ackleberry forest became.

As for Divine support, you do have divines that represent a face of Nature: Auseklis and Lisaera. Of course, how they interact within nature may be different than elsewhere and from one another, and how they consider in regards of the herb issue may also be different... but the fact is that an Organization that exist to ensure the survival of Nature's bounty, and regulate herb consumption that affect the general public would eventually get Divine support.

Concerning a group of berry pickers being able to dictate Nature's will... I wish nature had the ability to unleash plagues, cause hailstorms, blizzards volcanic erruptions, floods, famine, etc... to show mortal kind what may happen to people if they forget and abuse nature. But because this doesn't exist... you need a control group. Period. And a skill that allows you to BAN/UNBAN a specific person for crimes against nature for one stance, and severly crippling the commercial value and commercial availability of herbs as another. And no, there wouldn't be any group Monopoly. Why? As I've stated, EVERYONE can be a herbalist. Be it from Magnagora, Serenwilde, Celest, DoC, or citiless guildless folk. So how things are run would be decided by a worldwide majority.

EDIT: Just wanted to include something to my last paragraph. A highlight difference between an organization controlled by many, and the completely uncontrolled condition of right now... is that there would simply be guidelines to be followed, and responsibility for actions as there would be consequences if those actions commited by one had a negative impact on an overall population. Also, have in mind that if Alchemist and Herbals belonged to a coalition this would allow a face to face negotiation between both factions that need each other mutually. I reinstate a fact... a herbalist cannot be alone with herbs. We NEED elixirs, we NEED alchemists. And everyone needs in general elixirs and herbs. Since I don't want to subtract importance to the other trades... I'll say how the may link to mutual need, centered on herbalist. We NEED clothes, we cannot go naked and be crippled by our surrounding environment, we NEED armours and protection unless we wish to die at the hands of a better prepared thing or obstacle. we NEED food or else we would starve when looking for herbs, we NEED enchantments because there are multiple enchamtents that help us out. We need jewelery for somethings to be enchanted, and other purposes jewelery serve. We NEED poisons, specially if you are from the Serenguard or other Knight herbalist, because we need venoms to fight. I stated in the past that Lusternia clearly portrays the real global commercial interdependency that is. Why? Because we are limited beings who cannot do everything at once, nor are we entirely autonomous nor automatons withou need or dependancy of any outside support. Lusternia even dares to encompass the battle for resources making villages the prime producers of comms, and making cities communes race for control over them to ensure commerce between them, and thusly commodities. Everything in Lusternia is alright, Herbs just need to cease being a complete free wildcard, it needs to be controlled.

In the other IRE games herbas and alchemy are combined into one skill set. By the time you gain the ability to brew a certain elixer you would have also gained the ability to harvest the plants required. Usually two guilds in each game have this skillset in order to try and regulate it I guess, but they're nearly always on the same side of the fence and end up operating as one on the plants issue. Fairly low in the skill is lastharvest, and ability that allows you to tell who the last person harvesting there is (over harvesters quickly learn to take it down to 0 so the evidence is wiped out completely) The nature councils have the ability to enemy people to the forest, this also prevents them from harvesting herbs anywhere. The guilds can also outguild those that do not have class and strip the ability to harvest and brew from them.

The huge difference in Lusternia is that herbs and alchemy have been seperated into two different skills, the person that is brewing no longer can harvest. Herbalists still have a market without Alchemists, but Alchemists are nothing without Herbalists. Alchemy and Herbs are no longer under the control of guilds or a council, they are trade skills. And in Lusternia there is no way to discern who has harvested, or prevent them from harvesting more

All of my posts regarding this matter was aimed on what you have stated, Tsigany. Elsewhere herbs/elixirs are exclusive to a group, but even then being allowed to harvest refill becomes to be a privilege. There are always guidelines to be followed either set by the forestal guilds or Oakstone or any other relevant forestal organization. If you are clever enough to notice that Alchemist can't both harvest and refill in here, then you should view the fundament of my organization idea. Alchemy and Herbs would still belong to different individuals but when acting on a single organization, both trades would have the facility to ensure the produce of their trade. Everything would be much more swift and fair. An organization would be able to tell who has harvested and control harvesting by preventing those who abuse of herbs and everything this comes with... by preventing them from harvesting altogether, rather than enemying them to the forest and die everytime they enter a green area. So, the solution and alternative to forest enemying as a means to prevention you simply remove their trade skill until they learn to harvest on better terms.

EDIT: Just some notes. Thanks to the fact that herbs is not exclusive to a single group herb cannot be controlled by a monopoly of a select few. Lusternia actually allows for the global community to get involved in the trade. If anyone would be able to hold a monopoly, it would be the alchemists, since Serenwilde is the only one capable of doing elixirs. An organization would prevent this.

Benefits of said organization:
-A greater number of people with the herbs the public needs

-A fair price for the public, and a much fair prices and availability for alchemists to purchase the herbs for their elixirs

-A way to prevent overharvest, and a monopoly created by a simple individual.

-An opportunity for alchemists and herbals to dialogue and reach agreements that will affect both of their trades equally, and ensuring a fluid produce of elixirs.

-More happy people.

EDIT: Just wanted to state an end result: A more fluid commerce of both herbs and elixirs, which are needs that are required for anyone who cares to live and venture through Lusternia to be satisfied.

There can also be counters to an organization, but I will allow you people to ponder onto this. Since I am more focused on the creation of such organization to benefit everyone, I'll just state my points of view for you to critizice etc.
Just a contra of an organization: a strict control over how traders handle their trades, seeing how no one would be allowed to sell more expensive than what the organization dictates.

SPECIAL note for you Tsigany. You say Herbalist would still have a market without Alchemist? Well, so would forgers have without alchemist, cooks without alchemist nor forgers, etc... But, you fail to see the mutual need. EVERYONE needs elixirs or purgatives to heal. Meaning that Alchemists are always in demand, can they satisfy the current demand? No, because their is no organization. Trust me, constantly falling from the trees ending with crippled legs and no mending isn't a delightful experience. And your examples from elsewhere clearly state how a group (organized, be it guild or whatever) can prevent an individual from harvesting. Enemying to the forest, etc. And being actually able to harvest and brew is fairly difficult to acquire and produce, and only a minimal majority can do both entirely to satsify every need. We need to be organized, and as an organization we could have greater control, if not control at least we would have the capacity to regulate.