You say that Herbalists require armor from forgers and potions from alchemists. This is simply not true. One may want them, but they in no way require them. If my entire existance is an herbalist, I don't even have to join a guild or city. I can just pick herbs.

Cooks HAVE to aquire commodities and worry about availablity
Poisions HAVE to kill monster, requiring healing abilities and fighting ablility and worry about availablity
Jewlerey HAVE to aquire commodities and worry about availablity
Forging HAVE to aquire commodities and worry about availablity
Tailoring HAVE to aquire commodities and worry about availablity
Art Have to aquire commodities and Herbs and worry about availablity
Enchanters HAVE to aquire commodities and worry about availablity
Alchemists HAVE To aquire herbs and vials and worry about availablity

Herbalists... worry about availablity

Seriously daganev, don't be so obtuse... Availability requires for things to be there. And as you stated, every trade requires somekind of availability of comms. How/who produces comes? Villages. Who influences villages productions? The people. Who do villages normally favor? Those cities/commune tho whom they are loyal to. Herbs can walk and pick anything, because NATURE is our VILLAGE. We overharvest there is no herbs to harvest, we set high prices because we want, then everyone gets ruined. So, availability is a crucial factor... As I had already stated and you apparently did the same. Study more carefully what I said a global commercial independency is... Basically, a merchant needs of another either to produce their wares, or to sell, or what not. But this implies that every element needs of the other for some reason. If you say herbalist need of no one... trust me, I would love for that to be the case. I just can imagine rubbing arnica over my body to get a 200/200 defence against blunt and cutting. I would enjoy if by simply smocking weed, my satiation would be filled. If I just need to ingest anykind of herb to nullify any affliction I might be suffering, and wear a simple leaf to cover my body from the weather. Then this would mean herbalist would be in paradise. We could even have our private island and simply harvest and not even care how frequent herbs grow, because with 1 or 2 of every herb we would be content, and all our necesities satisfied. Bliss.

Also, you lack to see the benefit of joining a group. A lone wolf must be more clever and possess greater guile if he has to have a slight chance of survival... but a pack... and an organized hierarchical pack... it would make wonders.

I am sorry for comming offensive against you, daganev. But you seem to not read my posts fully making erroneous misconceptions, as if I had not placed pondering onto them, that I felt I needed to clarify to you some basic facts.

Oh, as for poisons... this is regarding knights. I think it has been discussed that damage by knights is minimal, this leaves us depending on afflictions. The best ways for us to afflict is poisons, even when the chances of afflicting are low. Who give poisons those few venomist. And any knight can be a herbalist.

So, other than stressing (as I already had done), that every trade depends on availability and probably on some elements offered by other trades (which may also be affected by availability). What was your point? Saying that herbalist need of no one and nothing is just fantastical.

In essence, raw materials are provided by the existing enviroment. It is duty of a merchant to shape this materials into wares and sell it to the public. If the public keeps needed said wares then the merchant will keep on making progress. But there are multiple links between the produce of the wares, the needed recolection of material for wares, and the availability to satisfy the public's demand. We can all wish we could instantly materialize things out of nowhere. Unfortunately this isn't the case. and Herbal merchants are not an exception... With 100 or more herbalist chasing after "bulk" herbs, herbs will turn to nothing. Leading to no availability. Less herbs mean less elixirs, and elixirs and herbs are needed by everyone. And so on, make concepts around what I stated and draw conclusions. Then counter me, but don't simply read a few of my ideas to try counter whatever I say.

There is no way a group of herbalists should be able to ban someone from picking herbs since no one *i repeat* OWNS the herbs.

Have you had previous experience with other realms? As Tsigany, I think, and I stated... in other guilds even when you do not own nature, nature's resources are controlled by a group (Oakstone, Eleusis, Druids, Sylvans, Sentinels... rogues). They regulate their members, they enforce policies upon their members. Oakstone can even forest enemy someone for OVERharvesting. And once you are forest enemied you can't enter a forest without being slain. Tacking into account that forests extend all throughout the land... this can be a real problem. Ah, also elsewhere such organizations can even try to ban entire groups. They fail in this, because there are some rogue elements, not only the rogues, but the actual willingness of their members to enforce such bans (Become a Mhaldorian in times of a herb ban, and you shall see how you may still count on sources for herbs elixirs). So... the alternative from kicking someone out before they obtain class (because there is no class in here, I believe, and even if there was, you could harvest), forest enemying someone so they die at the hands of the trees, or dictating a herbal/elixir ban upon someone... The organization could simply count with an ability BAN, effective against those who ... and I repeat, overharvest and exploit harvesting altogether. In other words, the end result would be the same from elsewhere just from a more controlled spectrum. Yep, we don't own the herbs, but because everyone needs them, we can sure try to protect themand regulate the abuse of overharvesting. Look at one of my previous post where I mentioned about gem cutting outlawed to public by some cartels. Cartel leaders don't control their people, but they can stablish guidelines, and try to regulate trade. If an organization whose purpose was herbs, then herbalist in a coalition with alchemists would do the same. Basically we would be a Oakstone/Eleusis/Druids/Sylvans/Sentinels/rogue citiless guildless people trying to manage herbs, rather than destroying them. With the increased benefit that seeing how not only Serenwilde can harvest, but anyone. Magnagora and Celest would be included in the dealings. Do you have any idea how said impact could benefit everyone?

EDIT: Consider everything as a fence, basically forest enemying creates a fence around nature against those who were enemied. What we offer in said organization is no fence, whatsover, simply guidelines and consequences. Everyone would use their own reason to work within boundries, other than being abusive OR suffering the consequences. Let us be honest, if Nature could manifest it's entire collective into a single being, it wouldn't be at all happy about people leaving it naked and destroying it, would it? The organization would be an armour to defend nature and act as nature would probably do... or at least as individuals that interact constantly with nature and are conscious of the effects of said interactions. Including how those who are not as closely interacting with nature are affected by our trade. If nature could only assume a form, and slap us for abusing of it, nothing like this would be needed.

Again, I can exist as an herbalist and not fight, not need weapons, not need armor, not need potions. I can have influence and keep grace and go around villages. Its just as possible for someone to buy out an entire commodity from all villages and cities and communes... except its not free to do so.

No one controls nature in this world, everyone thought us Hartstone do but we merely defend, as Auseklis pointed out. Also in other worlds druids had the ability to find out who last picked and really couldn't ban, just enforce a regulation of theirs, whatever that said to the rogue. My point is, there is no way to regulate herbalists and there shouldn't be, and this is coming from an alchemist. Too many archetypes can get herbalism although I cannot really see a knight stop to bend down and pick the pretty flower, but that is another issue altogether. Nature GUARD will help but other than that, survival of the fittest, I am doing fine with my herbs/potions.

Understood that its frustrating but its not Achaea or Aetolia or Imperian, its Lusternia.

Please, daganev. Stop trying to describe the actual "Arcadia", which would be entirely IDEAL for us herbalist, because then, we could retreat and say goodbye to the rest of the world as they plummet to chaos. Also, most herbalist are members of a group, this means that whatever conflict that group has we must side with it, meaning? We are also now part of the conflict. As for people buying comms entirely, herbs can be harvested entirely. Requiring effort, maybe too much from those who harvest bulk. One, we need clothes, we need armour, we NEED potions. Be smart... things deal damage, we require to level so at any extend we will grow out of grace. So to prevent damage we need defences and HEALTH elixirs.

EDIT: And because we are entirely not self-sufficient and vulnerable as individuals, we need of groups and whatever involve those groups affect us. And thus... the cycles start anew. You need weapons to fight, a herbalist cannot pick a simple twig and impale someone, nor strip the bark of a tree to get a 200/200 defense, nor leafs to make clothes, etc.... If you are part of a group, you need of a group, and the group needs of the stability and the synergy created by it's active members to remain stable.




Yeah, everyone knows this place isn't Achaea/Imperian/Aetolia... or any other game, be it IRE or not, from wherever each of us came from. But some realities from those realms take effect here, too. The realities from places like Achaea were shapped thanks to accounts that happened, nothing simply became and stayed as it is.

And in all honesty, we wouldn't be controlling nature, but we would be controlling those people who interact with nature. And I am sure that defences such as herb bans are possible... if not, then an overharvester extortionist would have around 15 or whatever amount of harvesters and supporters hunting them down for arraging a monopoly and creating an obstacle to other trades that depend on herbs. If people would only stop overharvesting altogether, if people would frequently replant, then this wouldn't be needed. But hey, some people do replant, but then someone else just makes this effort go to waste. See how pointless it is to try improve something if you have no control? An organization could work great, benefit everyone, and everyone would have a say on it. And as I said, nature could give a helping hand to those who try to mantain it's cylces in balance rather than indulge with those who just strip it bare and care nothing for it, because they have the opportunity of easily abuse of their actions without suffering any kind of reprimand. Organiztion. Control. Prosperity. Sustainability. Progress.

Oh, by the way, I can picture a knight harvesting. In fact, it could be a great benefit if he could seek the herbs he needs for combat... Example? Serenguard.

Speaking of organization. Here are some positions of how things could be organized.


Divine Patron and Representative to Nature:

Representative Herbalists of Magnagora:

Representative Herbalists of Celest:

Representative Herbalists of Serenwilde:

Representative Herbalists of Doc:

Representative Wandering Herbalists:

Union of Alchemists of Lusternia:

Chamber of Nature:


Once an organizations comes to be, stablishes common goals and paths to try accomplish such goals, what is left is to find support and endeavour on achieving said goals by thought and action... And we would all be more effective rather than a bunch of single individuals without a common identity.

Or it would be another small clan and a big knight comes along and harvests while no one can do anything about it, what will they do try to kill him as he slaughters them? Bloodshed for herbs, heh. Suffice to say, I don't agree with actions like that taken against people who want to just get herbs on their own and make money.

Domino effect. For those simple few that only want to harvest and make money, without taking into consideration key fundamentals as the overall amount of herbs available... You decrease the number of herbs available for anyone, any attempt of control on the prices, seeing how those simple few would be able to claim as price as much as they wish... You would have less elixirs, as the alchemists would keep complaining on how costly is for them to obtain herbs for their elixirs, and how less people may provide for them... You would keep having greater chances of having barren areas. Like I said, if people were conscious about it, rather than assuming a "I want more because I will manage to make more out of it, so forget everyone else" stance... there would no need for control. Just like a government, at an ideological stance, people could live in order within anarchy with the simple facts of a few precepts considered as true and advocation of common sense. But because people seem not to be able to coexist in harmony, governments are needed to stablish judiciary and legeslative branches, to establish laws and enforce them. And so on... the same works in the microcosm of trade, specially herbs seeing how.... Put it this way. For forging you need comms, but comms come in a limited amount and at a set price. So unless a single forger wishes to spend far too much by buying a shop out, then he must purchase only what he needs for whatever he/she forges. Also, you can influence how much comms a village produces by engaging on acts that cause a progress on the commerce. But with herbs, you don't have Nature saying: Insert 60 gold here to harvest 10 Arnica. Heh, to think of this would be absurd, so you need the practitioners of the trade to coordinate and create guidelines ensuring herbs for everyone at low prices, this would make elixirs more available, herbs more available for everyone with greater chances of finding more sellers.

As for a small clan finding trouble on a single knight... Magnagora has been at the begining active on replanting herbs and trying to control harvesting. So trust me, we would have more support than opposition. Of course, we would also have opposition, but that would mostly come from people that are entirely self-centered and see the opportunity of having no control to abuse of their trade. This organization would be able to have much support, because everyone of Lusternia can harvest, everyone in Lusternia is dependable on herbs for their use in one way or another, so everyone in Lusternia would want to do what is best to ensure herbs to be sold at a fluid rate.

As to why include alchemist within our coalition, is because they are actively affected by our trade, and we also need their elixirs, so a herbalist would want to ensure a steady flow of elixirs. Alchemist would be able to have a say on what are to be average "fair" herb prices. Trust me, this could work greatly. In some other realms, people saw that actions like this were a necessity, and Lusternia is no exception... there is a vast multitude who is angry at herb prices, at how you cannot find stable elixirs, at how many rooms can often be found entirely clear, etc., etc., etc....

EDIT: I wish to make something clear. Lusternia is just begining, if an organization like the one I have been discribing doesn't take form right now... it will probably do so in a close future, especially when Lusternia's population increases. Why? There would be more competition and demand of every herb, trade, elixir, etc. So, people like me who are aiming in a way to regulate herbs... are just merely taking the initial step others might want to continue later.

Oh, and Hayden, with your "Bloodshed for herbs" comment... you struck a nerve on the race for resources and control over a market, or better said competitive with which people engage on a market. Trust me, commerce can make you bleed, or cause you to basically butcher someone else Politics and business know formalities, but show no mercy.

I have another idea for this issue, that I think would both help alchemists obtain more herbs and in some measure work against overharvesting (and I admit I'm taking inspiration from Aetolia a bit here).

I think raw herbs should be unusable as cures. Before they can be eaten/smoked to gain the beneficial effect, they have to be specially dried out and prepared. Tailors would be able to sew a special drying cloth that would hold 50 herbs at a time, and then a herbalist who wanted to prepare his herbs must put them into the cloth and then set them out to dry in a room prepared for that purpose. The process would take one Lusternian day, after which the herbalist can collect his dried herbs, but during which he can only have one set of herbs drying. The drying cloth might also randomly be destroyed under the direct light. This would help slow down those who stripharvest thousands of herbs without any foreseeable balance mechanism.

Secondly, herbs used in tinctures/potions/whatever else wouldn't need to be dried first, so it encourages herbalists to easily supply other trades who are in need, at a reduced cost to themselves.

The basic idea can be tweaked of course - maybe rather than a drying cloth it's a special alchemic stone that dries the herbs quickly... but you get the picture. I'm a herbalist myself, and I realize that of course its not going to be popular with our trade, but we really don't have any sort of balance at the moment and it may go a long way towards solving some of our internal problems.

What do you think?

Elryn: you are starting to grasp the concept! drying the herbs is a great idea and causes teh herbalist to work a bit harder to supply edibles, it would seperate the costs a little since alchemists only require raw herbs. I still think we should get our own ingredients though

Desdemona: I hope that you didn't think I was supporting the system that the other IRE games use. I absolutely loathe the idea that a small handful of players can have that kind of power over me. You may have teh best intentions with the idea of making it so a group can decide whetehr certain others can harvest or not, but it will only end up being abused. What a great way to cut down competition just get rid of the others that can harvest... we'll make up some kind of charges against them so if they protest or seek divine help we can justify the actions ... I think one of the best things Lusternia has done is remove the power that guilds in the other games have traditionally held.

I think that your idea, Elryn, would simply slower the process that requires for herbalists to acquire the herbs and sell it. Why? Because they would have to seek from an outside source how they can "manufacture" the herbs before they sell them. Also, if said process costed money, you would have herbalist stablish a higher price for herbs so they can complete this "manufacturitation" process. Meaning they would seek that whatever income they make pays out for the process, and gives them an additional profit. Example: Herbalist A pays 50 gold to tailor for a clothe, then herbalist A places 50 arnica to dry. So, for Arnica to be profitable, a herbalist would probably set x price+50 gold or whatever he she spends to dry their entire herbs. Again, I think this would simply slower the process, and not really control how much someone harvests, because people who are still willing to undergo all this would be able to harvest the same (possibly leading to overharvesting). OR a herbalist would only harvest, and sell the raw herbs to someone else to manufacture, always asking for a higher price for the crude materials. Maybe you could further detail your idea?

Anyway, an organization who has enough power to regulate herb consumption and prices, plus places two of the most needed trades face to face to work in conjunction with each other... would be the best. Especially because they would be able to stablish a limit price marging on all herbs. Let us say that for arnica, average price is 10, but anyone is available to sell arnica at bellow 10 if they wish. But they cannot sell at 2 gold higher than the average price. This would balance everything and herbs is a trade, that if you have enough to sell you can always make a profit. Especially if you end supplying to shops. Prices set, herbs gathered, treates between herbalist and alchemist to ensure more and cheaper to make elixirs would help the public. Because they would have a steady income of herbs and of elixirs, plus more hervalists offering their herbs... thanks to the organization finding a way to control harvesting, preventing anyone to overharvest.

EDIT: No Tsigany, I am simply you stated very well how control over herbs are led on other realms, and by what means they can enforce any regulation they have... As for power, and control merely for a group. I repeat myself. ANYONE can harvest. So anyone with the trade harvesting could join the organization, and because alchemy requires herbs... they would also join and help decide what would be a good price so they could make cheap elixirs, and an average price for the public to see. Right now, the only monopoly that can be held is that of alchemists because this is exclusive to only a group. Herbs not, because anyone from anywhere, or from nowhere can harvest. So people would just rally under an organization to make decisions that will affect their trade.

Allow me to reuse Oakstone as an example. This is an elitist group. For one, only if you are of a forestal origin you can join. They do have complete and total controlas to what to say. You can't have an Oakstone working in Lusternia because you have people that serve as "forestals" stationed everywhere. Magnagora has people who harvest, I am sure Celest does. So herbs is no longer exclusive for people from a specific formation. So... it would be the vast majority decided on the trade, and it would be entirely impossible for anyone to deny their trade to someone. Why? Oakstone is commonly known for "ineffective" establishing bans to their enemies, and Mhaldor overall. Here you cannot do that. Because if Celest and Magnagora wish to ban Serenwilde, then Serenwilde can still provide it's herbs, as well as any other independant individual that can harvest. Whereas elixirs, if I am not mistaken, only druids and wiccans can select it. This means that alchemists could easily place a ban on other groups and there would be no alternatives. if a herbal/alchemist coalition such scenarios would be unlikely to occur, because there would be guidelines to follow.

You are right, Desdemona, it would only slow down harvesting... but that in itself is still something I think would be of benefit. If 50 sounds a reasonable number, the real hardcore herbalists could still harvest/prepare 1200 herbs a day, but at least there is that limit in place and its unlikely to be reached. At the moment, the only reason prices are high is because we herbalists are choosing to sell them at that price. There is no initial cost to factor in, its pure profit.

I forgot to mention in my previous post, that I think these raw herbs should become unsuitable for eating/smoking in a month if not dried. That way, large-scale harvesting requires strategy, rather than just greed alone. And your arnica example is a good one, because this method would also establish a 'value' to herbs, which doesn't exist at the moment. If it costs 50 gold for a cloth (and ignoring the fact you will likely be able to use it repeatedly), the herbalist should aim to sell those 50 arnica for over 50 gold, i.e. the herbalist has paid costs of 1 gold per herb.

Remember, they would be unable to use raw herbs themselves unless they are dried, so there is no incentive for them to charge high prices to an alchemist. I'd also say this method alleviates any need for a 'controlling organization', because if someone is harvesting -that badly- (although unlikely, and even less likely to be trackable), the cities/communes all just restrict access to their drying rooms. The problem is effectively solved.

If someone has enough time to clear areas clean of herbs, they will also find a way to encompass a time margin needed to dry said herbs. In any case, if they amass bulk helbs in expectation of being able to dry them, but fail to do so, they would just end with bulk pieces of ruined herbs.

Heh, we really don't need a very complex organized organization. We just need herbalist and alchemist to set average prices, a skill to discern who has harvested anygiven room... and have enough force and support to "punish" by killing, or something that involves physical anguish, whoever insists on overaharvesting.

By the way, it is those hardcore harvesters that normally would tend to overharvest. And because there is an additional time frame were people would have to work, less and less people would bother to make time to replant. Like you said, right now everything is about pure profit. This would never change if you never stablish an average price tag on herbs. You would simply make the process slower, but still possible to abuse.

The solution is to ensure that herbs are actually available to be harvested by a majority, ensure that herb rate is constant and rapid, that herb have an average price so nobody can demand a too high price. I still mantain that a coalition between herbalist and alchemist would be a solution... especially when some alchemists are trying to organize themselves, and herbalists, too.

Meaning that trade A, who needs trade B, would have a better opportunity to disuss with each other to that A+B becomes AB, rather than still being seperate from each other creating problems.

Desdemona, unless someone is deliberately trying to destroy plantlife (in which case anything we impose will have little meaning) harvesting an excess of fresh herbs is a mistake that will be made only once. Besides which the herbs won't actually be ruined, they just will only be useful to alchemists and artists .

As for establishing a set price for herbs... it just won't work in Lusternia I don't think. Theres no need to follow one group's pricelist, just because they think it sounds like a good number. Thats why I think establishing a base practical 'value' to herbs is important. Also, punishment assumes that the group has some kind of right to enforce their views on herbalism, and I think someone already mentioned that no one owns herbs.

Interdependence between herbalists and alchemists needs to be practically beneficial for both, otherwise it won't stick. Passing rules about it may be a good temporary solution, but its just not going to hold in the long run.

I really like your passion about this issue, it shows you really want to help the situation just like we all do. However, in this case falling back into familiar patterns from older IRE games is not only missing out on the originality and beauty of Lusternia's system, I just don't think it will work.

Making herbalist to need an additional step to sell their wares to others would only bring problems. Every trade is already organized in Cartels. If jewelers for example refuse to overall gemcut for the public, then those who can make vials will be able to make less vials, because I don't believe they would want to make expensive vials with a minimum profit. No vials, no elixirs. You would just be adding an increased difficulty. One, people could still be able to harvest whatever they usually do, even if they don't manage to manufacture/sell everything they harvest. People could still be able to claim any price that they consider to be suitable for herbs, specially if there is a limited number of herbalist actually possessing herbs, and rarity of herbs which is defined by how much you can encounter and to how far those herbs expand on an area/areas.

As for stablishing a margin as maximum price for herbs... it would work greatly, because everyone would be trying to sell lower than any other. If a group ensured that things like overharvesting were unlikely to occur, and actually tried to coordinate for herbs to be replanted as a group, would ensure for more harvesters to acquire herbs, herbs to be altogether more available for use, and less hassle for alchemists to acquire the herbs needed for their elixirs.

Also, as I previously stated... no one owns herbs nor Nature, granted. I already agreed to that, but just as an individual is owner of itself, a group can control it's trade, and whatever that trade influences by regulating it. So a group has greater chances of effectively grouping people and settling a common goal, than a lot of freelance herbalist just doing what they wish, and what is that in many cases? Simply make a hefty profit.

Organizations like the ones on other realms came to be because they are needed, specially when the amount of people requiring herbs/elixirs increases. And gathering two trades that mutually need of each other under a same roof is practical. View it as a factory, one sector working on a process, another sector on another to achieve an end result. Also, for an organization to stablish policies and rules which may change to adapt future situations would be great. And everyone who can make elixirs or harvest could join, making it an impartial organization, other than a biased element that completely dictates how something will affect entire groups and trying to enforce it. Here a majority from every stem of life would be able to voice their opinions and reach agreements, with added Divine support, things would only evolve for the best.

EDIT: I wish to point something out, not only those the population that demand wares increases, but also those people who are able to satisfy said demands. But as opposed to other realms, where herbs/elixirs are in a single skill, and a skill where only a group possesses, where those groups have an rigid control of how things are to be carried out, supported by a large amount of people and already existing organization... In Lusternia, you actually have one trade depending on the other. You have trades open to everyone, with the exception of Alchemy than only a limited group can pursue, so there is no actual limited control by a single entity, meaning that they cannot dictate entirely how a trade will influence a sector, because every sector has the opportunity to be involved within the decision making process. Instead of Conspirators of the world unite... Herbalists and Alchemists of the world unite!

Ok, let me drop what I'm suggesting for a moment.

Your solution to the lack of potions is to set price limits on herbs, and assume everyone will sell under them and not just buy out your people and sell elsewhere higher? And also to enforce the current overharvesting limit, which still benefits those who harvest entire swamps down to 5?

Cartels are based in communes/cities... are you going to want a global herbalism cartel? If so, why should people join? What benefit do they get? Free herbs? New recipes?

I think you'll find no solution is perfect.

No. Herbs/alchemy would not have a cartel because we cannot entirely use every aspect a cartel offers. Herb/Alchemy would set a worldwide syndicate. Herbs would have a set maximum price, as people selling lower than the rest, this is possible, but they are more likely to remain among the set marging. You would have a greater amount of people selling herbs, so prices would have to remain competitive. Meaning that if you want to sell your wares, seeing how herbs harvested by herbal A are the same as Herbal B C D E, you will probably want to sell at the same price or less. On the other hand, if there is no control whatsover on how things are harvested, you can have herbal A have the greater amount of herbs, limiting the market for other herbalist eliminating the competition. Because the competition is eliminated, you can demand whatever price you want rather than supply to demand whatever demand there is on your trade. An organization would ensure more people working to satisfy such demand, would find a way to promote competition by preventing individual monopolies. So, overharvesters would be less unlikely to happen, because with the support of an organization overharvesters would be kept at bay.

You didn't address my points, and I think its clear that opposition to a group of global herbalist nazi's is pretty widespread.