Well, I think that even if the alchemists found suitable replacements for herbs that are already sought for their curative properties... Alchemists would still having problems acquiring other herbs in general. Also, the competition between Alchemists would be increased. Unless those substitutions you are talking about are endless, you would have less alchemists being able to acquire them. Don't you agree that if Alchemists gathered with Herbalists to coordinate and regulate both their trades it would be the best for everyone? Even if the Alchemists do find a substitution for some of the most commonly sought herbs, thanks to their innate healing capacities, which are the herbs according to yourself are hard to come by with. Take notice that you said that such substitutions would only be able to be used for elixirs. And you clarified that you would require herbalists to purchase herbs. I admit, this would make things easier for you without ruining our market.

But if we do not organize, we would still be basically trading on control of randomness factor. The prices people claim for their wares, specially if there isn't a decent amount of traders satisfying a same demand with prices competitive enough to have any trader thinking twice before placing to a price tag. This goes for both trades, you could as easily have an Alchemist, especially if their trade becomes easier for them to handle, offering their trade at whatever price they want. Herbs in general would still be abled to be overharvested, reducing their availability. Making everyone, even alchemists for their curative herbs, subject of a shifting market. There would be absolutely no control on herb/elixir consumption. Therefore no real control on their availability. Because if there are less traders who manage to amass most of the wares, they can easily refuse trade to someone, or demand any price they want.

We do need to organize, Tsigany. After more careful pondering, yes... I consider your idea as a plausible solution. But without a regulated market, there would still be alot of trouble ahead, especially when Lusternia's population grows. If we did manage to get both trades under a same group, we would join our efforts, coordinate to be able to supply any demand without mattering how gargantuan this demand can be. If we do not organize, the only difference would be that Alchemists would need herbalists less for their elixirs, but your trade can still encounter itself in a tumoltuous market. Especially when Alchemists would still need our herbs, as you state, so would everyone else. We would stop depending on random factors out of our hands. A group can achieve more than a single individual. This is even much veracious, when both of our trades share a common goal, and have a global market to satisfy.

Well, I think that even if the alchemists found suitable replacements for herbs that are already sought for their curative properties... Alchemists would still having problems acquiring other herbs in general. Also, the competition between Alchemists would be increased. Unless those substitutions you are talking about are endless, you would have less alchemists being able to acquire them. Don't you agree that if Alchemists gathered with Herbalists to coordinate and regulate both their trades it would be the best for everyone? Even if the Alchemists do find a substitution for some of the most commonly sought herbs, thanks to their innate healing capacities, which are the herbs according to yourself are hard to come by with. Take notice that you said that such substitutions would only be able to be used for elixirs. And you clarified that you would require herbalists to purchase herbs. I admit, this would make things easier for you without ruining our market.

But if we do not organize, we would still be basically trading on control of randomness factor. The prices people claim for their wares, specially if there isn't a decent amount of traders satisfying a same demand with prices competitive enough to have any trader thinking twice before placing to a price tag. This goes for both trades, you could as easily have an Alchemist, especially if their trade becomes easier for them to handle, offering their trade at whatever price they want. Herbs in general would still be abled to be overharvested, reducing their availability. Making everyone, even alchemists for their curative herbs, subject of a shifting market. There would be absolutely no control on herb/elixir consumption. Therefore no real control on their availability. Because if there are less traders who manage to amass most of the wares, they can easily refuse trade to someone, or demand any price they want.

We do need to organize, Tsigany. After more careful pondering, yes... I consider your idea as a plausible solution. But without a regulated market, there would still be alot of trouble ahead, especially when Lusternia's population grows. If we did manage to get both trades under a same group, we would join our efforts, coordinate to be able to supply any demand without mattering how gargantuan this demand can be. If we do not organize, the only difference would be that Alchemists would need herbalists less for their elixirs, but your trade can still encounter itself in a tumoltuous market. Especially when Alchemists would still need our herbs, as you state, so would everyone else. We would stop depending on random factors out of our hands. A group can achieve more than a single individual. This is even much veracious, when both of our trades share a common goal, and have a global market to satisfy.



Heh, if you do that and overharvest people would direct their whining at you. Just make sure not go Tae'dae

I don't agree that Alchemists need to jump into bed with herbalists. There is a reason the two skill sets were seperated, why try to marry them together once more? I don't think a combined group trying to control the herbs is the answer here. I have seen it too many times before, once you create an organisation that has control over an aspect of a game you open the door for them to use exculsion as a tool to manipulate others. In short 'agree with us or we'll cut your herb supply' that kind of thing makes me feel uneasy and I don't believe it is what is needed here.

Yes we may have trouble aquiring the other herbs we need, but at least we'd only have trouble aquiring some of the herbs not all. Most are no problem at all, as for the things we could gather ourselves, that is for the alchemists to worry about regulating amongst themselves. Alchemists need things other than herbs, we cannot align ourselves tightly with any one group and I don't believe that is what was intended by the game designers either.

The only reason why forestal organizations were able to manipulate everyone else entirely... was because you had every forestal organization located within a single group. You had to join a guild to be given the privilege of harvesting, you required class. You only had a small group of people being able to engage on the trade. So, forestals could have X city, ban it, or grab Y city and ban it. Or grab Z city and make treaties with them of mutual benefit. Also, seeing how only forestals could join those organizations... if you ever got into trouble within your guild, or anything... got ousted without getting class, you lose the trade. You could be enemied to the forest, killing you every time you set a single foot on a forest (and forests elsewhere cover great extentions of the territory). People could even be banned from at least entering the forestal village... and refused commerce simply because you were member of a specific group. You also, had a mass quantity of people generating bias, feeding bias to those who enter that group , and threatening them or telling them terrible stories of what may happen to cute young herbalists if they deal with Evil persons.

Here it is entirely different. Why? Every city can harvest... Can you see what a huge difference this is? So your "agree with us or will cut your herb supply" cannot occur here. Just imagine if in other places (Evil) people were able to harvest. Heh, you would just shrug off any control an organization tries to impose over you, as long as you manage to remain unenemied to the forest. In here... you can't have Serenwilde refuse herbs to everyone else, because everyone else can harvest... A complete free market.

As for... as you rather bluntly said... "I don't agree that Alchemists need to jump into bed with herbalists. There is a reason the two skill sets were seperated, why try to marry them together once more?"

Maybe you do not grasp on how complex is trade in Lusternia as opposed to elsewhere. First of all, rather than issuing a guild a trade guildskill (knights with Forging, snakes with venoms, mages with enchantments, forestals with concoctions)... In here any individual is free to pick what trade they wish to engage on. On most trades you can make designs to improve your trade and make them more appealing. In here every trade does have an entire market to serve. In here all trades depend of each other to provide their wares, for their needs or for increased profits (shops). In here, contrary to elsewhere, you don't have mobile shops everywhere constantly selling wares (we just have Bob). In here, trades depend entirely on the availability of either things they need to manufacture their wares, or the availability of their wares entirely (herbalist). In here, you can interact with the land having an impact on how trade within your group shall be (protectorate states influenced by cities, that are the ones responsible for a city's supply of comms, etc). In here you can actually manipulate the supply that is to be disposed of... If you still don't grab the concept Lusternia is trying to give: global commercial interdependency. People need of each other (either to satisfy their needs or enhance their trade), people need of outside factors which they can manipulate. In here, everyone can engage on the competition for resources, and commercial competition. If you do not understand the synergy, that is needed, within all the elements that make up the market... You have suppliers,crafters, distributors, consumers... then of course, you can always say that no order is needed, that no regulations are needed, because you can't really understand how one element influences the other. It is way beyond supply and demand, because in here people are entirely active as suppliers, crafters, distributors and consumers, and there are ways to manipulate the availability of raw materials...
And if you haven't noticed... every other trade, aside herbs/alchemy/poison, have sectorial cartels. And a cartel functions to regulate production, pricing, and marketing of goods by the members of the cartel, that happen to be people of the same trade, also protects said members... Coincidience? Nope. With the added detail that cartels can design different patterns to have a different array of wares for the public.

Is an organization such a wrong idea for TWO trades that depend with each other? And how can you claim that alchemists depend on other trades for their wares? When those needs are minuiscule. If you claim that you need vials. Anyone who is high enough on art can make vials, even if they need to acquire the gemstones first. So, there... alchemists have a problem solved.

By the way, keep in mind something about cartels. They regulate their members, they reach agreements on general prices, you have an independant cartel on every city... Can you see how global herbs and alchemy is? Well, alchemy is only exclusive to Serenwilde... so only alchemists could actually keep a steady monopoly and place bans. But, people from every corner can harvest. You have around 100 individuals walking around racing after the herbs... limited amount of herbs. It would be silly to gather herbalists in sectorial clans. Why? Massive trade, we completely depend on how many herbs grow. Also, you can be 100% sure someone will be needing elixirs/herbs. So we always have commerce, we always have a public to satisfy. But because we are global, any decisions made by a sectorial group would be null, we have greater opportunities of reaching publically accepted policies.

Trust me, if people in Lusternia decided to seperate elixirs with herbs... were for: 1)Now those who can make elixirs depend on someone else, no more harvesting bulk herbs and refill bulk, 2)I am sure they wanted to see how competent we people were to supply a wordwide market, meaning how well we operate, 3)It adds a greater interactivity in the commercial interdependency, 4)Now people are free from a small group completely having the power to ban entire groups, 5)Those who are able to harvest, don't need a guildskill nor need to belong to a city with everything that belonging to a city comes with.

It would be thousands and thousands of times more ideal if: forgers could get hammers, enter mines and take all the raw materials they need, if jewelers were able to do the same, if cooks were able to slay any animal to butcher and later on cook, if enchanters could simply need to use magic th create whatever is required for their enchantments as opposed to find something to enchant, if venomists only had to kill few poisonous creators derive venom from them to make both antidotes and venoms, if tailors could make spinning wheels and harvest cotton or whatever textiles they need for their trade, if herbalists just needed of their herbs to survive, if alchemists could transmutate any element onto another element they need. Then, there would not be any real level to commerce... other than simply people trying to horde over materials for their trade. Commerce here was deconstructed so people had a greater opportunity at regulation competition, so there would be more people able to satisfy demands, so people would actually depend on each other to commerce...

If you cannot see the benefits of an organization of similar elements working together... Do you know that factories work like this? Even those assembly line factories... you have people working on something, others on something, then they add the components and make a whole. We would do the same... herbalists harvest and provide herbs, alchemists get herbs and make elixirs... Bigno, you have created enough order and coordination to satisfy any market... have less problems on satisfying a market... and a indirect control over prices. Trust me, if a large merchants offer the same wares... they must try to undersell the other, or at the very least makee great deals. Alchemists and Herbalists need to organize together, if you fail to see this... then I do wonder if you really want to see your trade improved and be capable of supplying everyone.

I'm guessing you havn't played imperian either, where you have 7 forestal orginizations.
3 guilds, 2 cities, 1 clan, 1 order

You still have one pricelist, and everyone following it.

Culture is a powerfull thing in the hand of the socially adept. And giving true power to that culture makes it doubly so.

I still hold that all you do is read help files and theorize without any actuall playing.

Heh, I've tried Imperian. And like you said... there are multiple forestal organizations, and guilds who are not druids but that can make concoctions they need (Wardens as an example). So there is no real "abusive" control. If organizations in other cities can amass without much disagreeing is because they mostly share the same background, are controlled by their guilds to start with, so everyone is happy. And because said groups are sectorial... they are centered on a specific point, and working from that point forward. You cannot contain the world, because in Lusternia the world can harvest (elixirs are made only by a few)... So there would be no segregation in here... Trust me, I am sure herbalist from Serenwilde care more about their people than Magnagora, but Magnagora can also harvest so you cannot have privilege over the other. As for a pricelist for everyone to follow. Like I said, said pricelist would be an average pricelist. You could sell for less, or for more without exceeding a limit (2 gold past the average price), and because an organization can make sure there are more merchants... you would have a big number of herbalists offering their wares, so logically, if you want to make the profit you must have outsell the competition even if it requires at lower price. AND, the benefit that alchemists would be able to coordinate efforts with us there would be more elixirs... and alchemists wouldn't be extortioned when trying to get the herbs they need, nor be denied those herbs....


As for only theorize elsewhere... that isn't. I have experience elsewhere as opposed to here, where like everyone of us, I've just started to taste experiences. But normally, my experience elsewhere is like a consumer. A consumer with connections, I might add... once you know some interns you can always know how something operates. Maybe you are strange to this? If am doing anything right now, is stablishing theories of possible solutions... wanting to place them into practice. And trust me herbalists had started to get organized since quite a time now... Even before I started giving ideas of an herb/elixir organization.

We all could still try establish the Ellindel Arbotorum Institute for Plantlife Preservation and Research. This would solve the problems of the world, as far as: cures, food, etc. goes.

Desdemona you are bordering on being patronising and insulting now. For your information I am not some 13 year old school child who needs a lesson in economics and commerce. I run a household, a small business, a family so I do have just a few clues about life and how things work. I've also been mudding for near a decade now and seen how people interact in many different types of mud.

For a start there is a huge difference between having a mutaully acceptable trade and supply relationship and actively grouping with another trade. I have never once said Alchemists should not need to depend on herbalists, I have however said we should not depend on them so much. Specially when they are unable to provide the things we need. I have never suggested we should simply dream up anything we desire and find some way to magic it from nothing. You accuse me of lacking the ability to grasp how complex trade is in lusternia..

Lets see, Alchemist depends on herbalists for 90% of their trade needs - Herbalist depends on Aclhemists for 0%. Herbalists depend on no other trades, for a complex system of trade interdependance there seems to be an imbalance there. One that I have tried to address in this thread.

We mutually agree that Alchemist actively depend on herbs. We mutually agree that each one of us want to make what is best for our respective trades. And neither have I said that alchemists shouldn't depend on herbalists, nor herbalists shouldn't require alchemists (my Ellindel Arbotoreum idea was an attempt at mockery). But what I am saying, that a great way to make decrease the dependability between alchemists/herbalists, is if we organize each other. In fact, even when as you claim, such dependability on herbs wouldn't be void... Why not organize to ensure that there are more available herbs and at more affordable prices?

As for herbalists not depending on any other trade... This is not so. Just because it isn't entirely evident doesn't mean there is none. First of all, such as there are some herbs that only alchemists can use, there are afflictions that can only be healed by elixirs... If herbs was a too great answer for afflictions, then the herbalist would have the market on their pockets, there would be no need of alchemists in general. Also, if you are a herbalist knight, you need of weapons to fight, armour do defend yourself and clothes to guard your body from the climate. We need food because we can't cook whatever prey we hunt. As for other herbalists, mainly druids and wiccans, they may need other trades less. But they still NEED elixirs, need clothes, and food. It would be great if there was an active regulation on harvesting. If instead of trying to race for available herbs, treading through vast areas, replanting, spending great amounts of time harvesting... we simply had to enter a Herbshop, and purchase arnica for 50, reishi for 70, marjoram for 10... and so on. People would no longer be able to abuse of the trade. Because they would have a big expense if they tried. But what you do have on a such free trade... it is an exceedingly free market. No regulations, no order, nothing. You can only count on finding herbs, unless someone else harvested an area clean, which in this case you have no trade. Instead, you have a select few practically having the control on the market... as they have all the supplies and can demand whatever price they want for them.

Because, alchemists and herbalists need of each other mutually. There is nothing wrong with having both alchemists and herbalists organize each other. There would be greater opportunities to keep demands satisfied, rather than constantly setting demands on the supplies a few control. What is it you want Tsigany? Do you wish to improve alchemy trade entirely? Or do you simply want to improve the alchemy trade so only a few can benefit? For every trade could easily fall onto monopolies if they don't need to depend on other factors not entirely on their control.

By the way, I am happy you shared some of your life with us in here. Then you must certainly realize that some IRL are always applicable on fantasy worlds like this, that a business does require order or at least some regulations. And that a business does depend on factors outside of their control in order to keep said business. And how a monopoly can severly cripple a places's economy. Throughout this post, everyone has tried to offer a solution the the lack of supply on the elixir market. People have tried to offer solutions on how to regulate herb consumption. People have tried also to make people think as if all that is required to exist, for people on a particular trade, is the trade itself... In all, everyone has voiced their opinion. We all understand how trades/people depend on each other, how a decisive factor on a trade is the availability of supplies, how there exists some sense of order within other trades to protect their members, how global elixirs and herbs are, the necessity of trying to ensure the availability of supplies... among other things, and one thing I have been constantly tried to stress is that we need ORDER.

If you do not agree with me in this issue, it is fine. Like I previously mentioned, Herbalists had been trying to organize since long ago. Thanks to this, people from the herbalist trade can finally try to get their trade onto better shape, and regulate the herb market. Now, if you as an alchemists don't want to join, nor agree that it would be a great benefit if herbalists/alchemists joined... you are free to do as you wish. Just, please, do not try to ruin any attempts of other people to stablish order, especially when it is much needed.

By the way, here are some of the solutions that have been expressed by the people that could help everyone out concerning elixirs:

-If some of the more complex elixirs required a less amount of herbs.
-If Bob's wares were less quality than any alchemists, including amount of
healing factor, and amount of contents.
-If alchemists were able to find substitutes to herbs that are rarely found by
them needed for their elixirs.
-If alchemy were a portable trade.
-If alchemists and herbalists coordinated to ensure an increase of supplies to
satisfy any demands.

Feel free to list any others

My god, these posts go on for miles in length.

Whoa. since when did I become the destructive element here? Please stop trying to imply that I am stupid, idiotic, out to ruin anyone elses attempts at organisation. I began a thread to state there IS a problem with potions and to suggest ideas that can help that. Some how the thread was hijacked and turned into a 1001 reasons why alchemists and herbalists need to form a coalition. I don't agree that is what will fix the situation or is what is needed, but you are welcome to go ahead and make it. I've never said I would sabotage any such attmepts so please do not imply I might wish to do so

And thank you for listing the ideas that I have come up with that could help the situation at the bottom of your latest post. That is what this thread is supposed to be about.

Please also rememebr this is an ooc forum, Tsigany in the game is not me. I'm looking at coded ways to adjust and balance the amount of interdependance between trades, not ic tools which are vastly different.

Ok this is it seriously I have said what I felt was needed now I'm going to leave this thread, if the powers that be see any merit in the ideas here then great. I'm not going to be drawn into defnding myself or my motives here

Interesting. Wherever did I imply you being an idiot? If that is the overall message you got from reading my posts, suit yourself. A person can always interpret the contents of anything, and deviate entirely from what is meant.

And allow me to clarify something the 1001 of why it would be good to join alchemists and herbalists, because this happens to be a possible solution for the lack of elixirs, lack of disorder in the herbal market. Nothing else. As for myself implying that you would sabotage any attempts of organization... no. I was just asking of you not to try obstacle it, if some people were actually trying to get those few alchemists that would like to join a group to do so. Also, don't take all the credit about all the ideas that were listed under my previous post. Read around, most of everyone that has come here have given an idea. And one thing is for certain... "-If alchemists and herbalists coordinated to ensure an increase of supplies to satisfy any demands." Wasn't one of your ideas. And on other ideas specially those involving the lowering the quality of some products, you posted counters on how such solution wouldn't work:



When this isn't true, because as long as someone can satisfy a demand of a specific elixirs, they have business. If someone can only refill health, and can provide sufficient supplies, they can be rich. No need for ooc credits. When in fact, that opinion about lowering elixir qualities was aimed at Bob's vrs. alchemist's elixirs. Aiming for Bob to sell less quality product and probably more expensive than alchemists.

And yeah, you provided some solutions ic. So did everyone else. But yours mostly, need implemented changes within the current system. Whereas an idea like mine, that of an organization... can simply be the end product of the evolution of a group. Meaning all my solution requires is to group herbalists/elixirs, make agreements, provide each other the wares they need for commerce, set a price and sell. You don't really need far too complex changes from what there is already just things that can easily be implemented in the future.

If you don't wish to read nor participate on this post any longer... feel free to abandon it. Herbs an elixirs is a major concern for everybody, not just the alchemists and herbalists. So people will continue on offering solutions and manifesting their concerns until this problem is solved. And IC, I really could stop caring about herbs, I simply weevil to satisfy all my needs. No need to get deeper into my trade, or into politics, nor need to offer solutions, because I've found ways to not be really affected. Unfortunately such isn't the case for everyone, so we need a viable solution. And an organization is clearly one of them, it simply requires a big group of members.

Despite your quite abundant and redundant advocation for an Herbalist/Alchemist organization, I suspect you to be more interested in having some kind of control on the situation over there than trying to really find a solution to the actual problem. And despite your attempt to make it sound casual, your lack of involvement in the game and your mono-argumented flood text, is quite symptomatic to your dislike of the actual chaotic situation.

More seriously, for most an organization is probably a necessary evil. I know you could tell me, but as an organization, we could manage the replanting of herbs and any other kind of positive activity and inter-relation.A community will always reflect the fears, the frustrations and the hopes and the contentment of its members.
What will you do, when the population of harvesters will be inadequate to the number of available herbs. How many will have to renounce to their dreams to be wealthy? How many will be frustrated to see their careful efforts for replanting, wasted to naught.

And even then, i don't see how an organization could be a solution when it just takes one kid to over harvest one area, or how it could "increase" the availability of potion. Unescapably, one will go about decreasing the access to the herbs for the common peon... rationning even more.. over-killing those who have over-haversted, and the rising of an administrative elite in this organization and gods know what kind of other atrocities in order to keep the high hand over the situation.

An organization heh?... been there, done that.

Just a few thoughts.

I was one of the earlier people to trans Herbs, one of the first selling sparkleberry, and yes, I have made a lot of cash from my skill.

I also spent a lot of time planting areas, only to have them fully harvested out.

I sell my herbs at rates which frequently earn comments along the lines of 'You must be joking' - 15 per is a typical sale price, going up to 30 for horehound and 100 for sparkleberry - ignoring bulk discounts, of course.

Now. When people say 'Herbalists don't have overheads', they're typically thinking about money. Fair enough, in that sense, what we make is pure profit.

What a herbalist is actually charging you for is his or her time. Think about that for a second.

To harvest a single herb, there is a balance time of about 4 seconds. I just checked that, forgive me if I'm off. If the herb is rare, it can take 10-15 minutes or more to find some, if you can, at all. If it's dangerous to harvest, for example, sparkleberries, deaths can happen.

So, for you to amass a collection of 1000 herbs, for example, we're talking about an hour and ten minutes of harvesting. That ignores the wonders of the 'rare' spices that always show up.

Seeing as I'd sell that sort of quantity at 10 per (depending on plant), that's 10,000 gold for your hour's work, assuming you had a perfect run - I'd say that's a fair value for me to place on my time.

The thing is, for me, at least, I'm not just a herbalist. Harvesting is just one more time-consuming job that has to be done.

PS - Personally, I'm anti-organisations such as Herbalists of Lusternia. Why? I simply dislike being threatened and having people attempt to pressure me into giving them large quantities of money. I call that extortion.

You must be joking indeed . Even the more expensive shops don't ask 15 gold for a herb. There's plenty of places to get any herb for less than 10 gold a piece. All the other tradeskills need much more time and effort to use, plus they need to buy tons of the now extremely expensive comms, I don't think anyone should pay more than 10 gold for any herb. This isn't Achaea.

On a sidenote, I believe Lady Estarra stated that Bob was only temporary, and that he will disappear sometime soon. He was only a temporary fix to get everyone on their feet, and sold certain wares and necessities at vastly reduced prices.

He may still be there, just probably not selling the range of things he does now.

I want him dead.


Edit: In seriousness though, I hope he stops selling a lot of things, and raises prices on everything that remains... a lot of things are way underpriced of what a player could possibly sell them for. That is if they don't completely remove him, which I like the idea of happening... or limiting him to selling health, mana, and bromides only and sticking him inside Newton.

Elitism? How can you create elitism on a trade that can world-wide be practiced? There is no control over the market, and if such organization did come to be... You would have people from every corner from Lusternia joining, by no means would there be ways of people of a same background have control over the other. The only way elitism would be possible to occur, if to begin with the trade Herb underwent rigid controlled by already existing organizations (guilds) and if only those who belonged to a specific place could in fact Harvest.

In case you haven't noticed, it is an ample array of people have actually manifested their concern with regards of the herb market. How limitedly available herbs are, and how people are entirely free to place whatever amount of money they want for their produce. If in the current situation there is a "elite" group having control on the herb market, is the group of those people who overharvest. Why? You limit the resources to others, you have no regulations over your trade... then you are free to stablish a monopoly. You are free to deny trade to others.

Now you speak of control. How is control not a solution to an issue that has no regulation whatsover? By all means you can't assess the current situation and claim who are all those that can harvest, you have no way to discern who has been harvesting a room. You only have a limited amount of people herbs that can claim to give them any destination they wan't, majorly on the hands of those few that pay the price they claim. With regulations comes control, with control there is order. And order is what the herb market and over all population of Lusternia, those few that can only play roles as consumers, need in order to satisfy each others needs. Why? There would be less number of random factors to deal with. First of all, you would be able to make sure that there is a constant higher number of merchants (this means greater availability on the hands of many on the market), and lastly make an effort to try to keep the herb population stable. Giving as an incentive to people to stop acting unscrupulously.

Also, as you claim... that it is a single individual that can ruin the efforts of many. I believe you fail to see how control would act as a preventive measure against this. Again, as already stated, you would have a majority working on trying to maintain the herbs. If by any chance, someone acts on an irrational manner and commits the abuse of ruining said effort, you would finally count ways to counter such actions. Whereas, as it is commonly the case, you have 2-3 people replanting, and +10 harvesting without even the slightest concern about the current situation.

Now, you claim that an organization would try to rationalize the trade and would ruin the "dreams" of being wealthy... How can this ever be true? If you understand how herbs is a global necessity, you will always have people seeking those who can provide the trade. At every moment, at every place you would see people looking to purchase whatever amount of herbs they can afford. Even if someone has only 600 arnica and sells them at 10gp, he/she has the opportunity of making a 6k profit. How can you ever be poor with herbs as a trade? The only way you can be poor, is if you have no opportunity to join the competition. And right now, as it has been stated, the supply of herbs in the market is only on the hands of few. By the way, how can the population of herbalists ever be inadequate to the amount of available herbs? If a single person can probably harvest 1-6 rooms alone, if not more, and you have anyone who chooses to learn Lowmagic the opportunity to harvest without need of joining any group? No, if there will ever be an scenario, and it occurs on present times, is an inadequate availability of herbs to the current population of herbalists.

I've stated, throught my post, that it is a major concern of the population the current situation involving herbs. Consumers and herbalists in general. The current random prices entirely on control of the harvester, the more and more rare causality of finding herbs when they are already stripped clean and in the hands of few. If there is anyone who would be entirely opposed to an organization as being a possible solution for the current problem, are those who see their current monopoly endagared by what would be an organized group working together to place an end to the problem.

You must see what is evident. Right now, there IS control. Things are already rationed. Who has the matters under control? Those who constantly keep strip -harvesting, those who are constantly able to be free to set whatever price they want for herbs. How are things rationalized? With the constant lack of herbs, and people trying to find at the very least few of the herbs they need, but the market entirely controled by few... there, you have things rationed to naught. With the current ration, not everyone is able to harvest the necessary herbs to enter the market, herbs are without any control stripped bare, merchants can easily say to whom they will sell always selling a specific unit for whatever price they want.

You claim to have been on an organization. Great. You were able to be on an organization that had all the circumstances favoring it's origins to be elitist, circumstances that were ripe for those very limited few keep control on the practitioners of not only herbs but also the concoction market. Circumstances that enabled said organization to center itself entirely on a single sector, allowing them the power to completely abuse their trade to entire groups of hundreds, for the simple fact of their affiliations.

As opposite to here, you don't need to join a guild to learn how to harvest. You don't need class to be allowed to harvest. You don't have to constantly be anxious about being caught dealing with the "enemy". In fact, in here, you have an organization that could be made by the entire population of Lusternia, if everyone chose to join and everyone chose to harvest. You have harvesters from opposite sectors, who can make sure their respective groups have their needs satisfied. And this are factors that would constantly prevent any organization be a "bully". Why? As opposed to elsewhere, where a limited group made decisions about policies that would inpact the general public, you have the opportunity to get the general public on shaping the policies of said organization. Why? Because if you are not member of the group, or any group, you could still simply go harvest and join the market.

Finally, if I may be so bold to do so, I am sure that within my posts I've voiced the opinions of a great majority that are entirely sick not being able to have at hand any ways to regulate the current situation that affects herbs and every other trade involved with it. Both as consumers and merchants. How could herbs working alongside with alchemist help them also have a greater amount of elixirs? There are various ways to achieve this. You could have few herbals harvesting with the only purpose to sell to alchemists, at prices affordable enough to them, so they can have what they need for their elixirs. Or a greater market with more competitive prices much more affordable to anyone for any purpose. A group is a solution, it is just that many of us don't wish to discontinue our current privileged positions to make any kind of commitment.

In regards with Caedryn. Herbalists of Lusternia, clan to which I've been planning to join, has been longed established. And by no means did you have people acting like sharks extorting someone else from their lunch money. That clan came to be due to the evident mutual opinion shared by so many, who were willing to donate any amount of money so that it could came to be. Also, thanks to Charis' efforts to succeed on finally establishing said clan. If anything, that clan may be the foundations for a more organized group with an even more solid amount of members. Time will tell... and if the situation doesn't change, it will probably be very likely that that clan will grow.

I don't know if your aware, but a herbalist clan *does* exist.

I rely on bob for forging... without him I would not be able to forge. Its sad but true.

I'm starting to think that bob should be removed for a while and then we can accuratly fix the economy.. Yes fighting and bashing will have to be slowed down for a while , but I think if you warn people about it , it can work.

People rely on bob too much. He's the cheapest form of everything right now. And if 3 people end up owning the economy for a while so be it, soon it will even out. Even though people can buy credits from outside the game, and thus get a large sum of money for themselves.. Gold itself does not come from outside the game universe and thus credits only shuffles money around and doesn't actually create more wealth.

"You must see what is evident. Right now, there IS control. Things are already rationed. Who has the matters under control? Those who constantly keep strip -harvesting, those who are constantly able to be free to set whatever price they want for herbs. "
Let me guess, you guys would be the good guys, and those who would not join would be the bad guys. What are you trying to achieve ? Another 'animal farms' and i can already guess who would be in the role of 'Snowball'. This damned Snowball who has overharvested over night the herbs of the good people.

An organization has its inherent problems.It's not healthy to consider an organization as a miraculous hole in which one would throw has much people in as possible, and hoping for some gregarious instinct to do the rest of the work, and POOF!, all the problems would be solved. Happy end!

You, guys, want to build something together, it's a shared dream, and i respect that. Maybe it's going to have a positive influence, this i do not deny.

But c'mon guys, it's a freaking heroic-fantasy game... stop trying to bring your behaviour schema in the game,like those guys bashing on this newton~something because he had made a pompeous post and that's so not keeewl to be pompeous, I can almost foresee some dude trying to upgrade the teleport skill with the newfound formula e=mc2 -gasp-.

Disregarding each proposed solution because it hadn't the smell, taste or shape of the concept organization, while you could be exploring different concepts like a shamanic mythology for all the herbalists or any of the proposed concepts. It's almost as if i can hear you screaming... "oh Mama.. MMAAAMA. *sniff*.. i had a nightmare, i was dreaming that the prices were going up and down... it was so scary".. "tsk, tsk, c'mere dear, it's allright, you know that such a thing would never happen".