Alchemy

by Tsigany

Back to Ideas.

Unknown2004-11-13 01:33:37
QUOTE (Thorgal @ Nov 12 2004, 10:50 AM)
You must be joking indeed tongue.gif. Even the more expensive shops don't ask 15 gold for a herb. There's plenty of places to get any herb for less than 10 gold a piece. All the other tradeskills need much more time and effort to use, plus they need to buy tons of the now extremely expensive comms, I don't think anyone should pay more than 10 gold for any herb. This isn't Achaea.


No it's not Achaea. Unlike Achaea, here we have a purely supply-demand based herb market, something people have been demanding forever on the other IRE MUDs... and now they're waking up and finding they don't like it. I still find that quite amusing.

That aside, he can sell at whatever price he wants to. There is nothing dictating prices here. If you don't like the prices then yes, shop around, go to those cheaper stores. Obviously he's selling enough if he's still charging those prices. As for other skill needing more time, that's really quite ridiculous. You go and try and find reishi, or try and find horehound harvestable in quantites enough to make selling it a viable option. Good luck with it. Any other trade skill it is merely go to a comm shop, buy the comms and then craft. Voila.
Desdemona2004-11-13 02:54:03
QUOTE (dlanod @ Nov 12 2004, 06:33 PM)
That aside, he can sell at whatever price he wants to.  There is nothing dictating prices here.  If you don't like the prices then yes, shop around, go to those cheaper stores.  Obviously he's selling enough if he's still charging those prices.  As for other skill needing more time, that's really quite ridiculous.  You go and try and find reishi, or try and find horehound harvestable in quantites enough to make selling it a viable option.  Good luck with it.  Any other trade skill it is merely go to a comm shop, buy the comms and then craft.  Voila.


Heh, the problem is, that sometimes you can't find some reishi or horehound to harvest, and this happens frequently. So a herbal must walk around for long periods of time, sometimes circumnavigate throught the land to encounter nothing. Like you so boldy said, on other trades you can go to a store and purchase any comms you require. But you have prices to prevent people from purchasing huge amounts of comms. With herbs, since they are free... there is no stopping you, and if you can't harvest because you don't find any, chances are someone else has all of it and may sell to a limited market and always claiming whatever price they want. No real advantage on having a free market, if only few can actually take part on the competition....
Desdemona2004-11-13 04:20:01
Freya,Nov 12 2004, 04:22 PM:

"Let me guess, you guys would be the good guys, and those who would not join would be the bad guys. What are you trying to achieve ? Another 'animal farms' and i can already guess who would be in the role of 'Snowball'. This damned Snowball who has overharvested over night the herbs of the good people." Nope, the organization would just be a preventive buffer against monopolies, lack of herbs, and an example to the general trade of harvesting on trying to achieve better ways to improve their trade without taking a cost on the general population.

"An organization has its inherent problems.It's not healthy to consider an organization as a miraculous hole in which one would throw has much people in as possible, and hoping for some gregarious instinct to do the rest of the work, and POOF!, all the problems would be solved. Happy end!"

Obviously, if you are a mortal you have problems. If you are an individual you have problems related to your individuality, if you are in a group you are obliged to commit yourself onto the group and take care of the problems affecting the group... as a whole. See? More hands and heads taking care of matters. So, part of an organization is establishing all the elements within it working as a collective and in an orderly fashion on whatever goal the organization is trying to achieve. As opposite to a tumultous mass that are in a frenezy for destruction, and organization's purpose is to function adapt and keep functioning. Even organizations can end up extinct as dinosaurs if they do not... organize

"You, guys, want to build something together, it's a shared dream, and i respect that. Maybe it's going to have a positive influence, this i do not deny."

Thank you for not denying that this shared "dream" may have a positive influence. Remember, if you have a dream, set it as a goal, and work to achieve it with effort... hey, you may just have been able to make your dream come true.
Just an addition, even when achieving a goal may be difficult, every step of the way may provide great experience, and make the fulfilment of said goal all the more satisfying.

"But c'mon guys, it's a freaking heroic-fantasy game... stop trying to bring your behaviour schema in the game,like those guys bashing on this newton~something because he had made a pompeous post and that's so not keeewl to be pompeous, I can almost foresee some dude trying to upgrade the teleport skill with the newfound formula e=mc2 -gasp-."

Hm... can't you see how heroic is for a group of people trying to organize? I mean, we are like architects trying to stablish order within the chaos. Also, what a group would be trying to achieve with said order, is to bring a greater sense onto the realms, a greater market and a greater benefit. Hey, even this fictional life has may similitudes to the otherwordly situations, in fact, some otherworldy situations can even serve as inspirtation for fixing realms problems... with the ease, that it is much easier to find solutions within the realms than elsewhere. Also, we are not being pompous, just realistic. Herb/elixir market needs to be changed, we would be better if we united... so from then on we are trying to work ourselves on ward.

"Disregarding each proposed solution because it hadn't the smell, taste or shape of the concept organization, while you could be exploring different concepts like a shamanic mythology for all the herbalists or any of the proposed concepts. It's almost as if i can hear you screaming... "oh Mama.. MMAAAMA. *sniff*.. i had a nightmare, i was dreaming that the prices were going up and down... it was so scary".. "tsk, tsk, c'mere dear, it's allright, you know that such a thing would never happen".

No, I haven't disregarded the ideas that have been suggested here. In fact, the ones I listed on one of my posts, seem to be some of the most conceivable solutions to the current problem, allow me to list them again:

-If some of the more complex elixirs required a less amount of herbs.
-If Bob's wares were less quality than any alchemists, including amount of
healing factor, and amount of contents.
-If alchemists were able to find substitutes to herbs that are rarely found by
them needed for their elixirs. (much more difficult to implement than the other solutions)
-If alchemy were a portable trade.
-If alchemists and herbalists coordinated to ensure an increase of supplies to
satisfy any demands.

My opinion is, that if order existed, instead of chaos existed... new things could gradually be surfacing. Problems and general benefits alike, but you would have the opportunity to deal with them in an orderly way, rather than like jumping before a hurricane and just hope you can fly. Even, maybe the other solutions after the organization has been made, could have greater opportunities of being implemented. And that dream sequence you enacted... well generally people wouldn't be crying out for their mamas, just crying tears of frustration seeing how they don't have matters at hand nor herbs... simply feeling aggressive against those Boogiemen for making abuse of their trade. Also, people would in a group, surely be more secure than in singles. So no wolf go kill the lone sheep, it would be lone wolf go try hunt a sheep from the floak as it is being guarded by the sheepherder. Defence by the numbers, more resources by the numbers, and better ways to manage by the numbers.

daganev,Nov 12 2004, 03:29 PM:

I don't know if your aware, but a herbalist clan *does* exist.

I rely on bob for forging... without him I would not be able to forge. Its sad but true.

I'm starting to think that bob should be removed for a while and then we can accuratly fix the economy.. Yes fighting and bashing will have to be slowed down for a while , but I think if you warn people about it , it can work.

People rely on bob too much. He's the cheapest form of everything right now. And if 3 people end up owning the economy for a while so be it, soon it will even out. Even though people can buy credits from outside the game, and thus get a large sum of money for themselves.. Gold itself does not come from outside the game universe and thus credits only shuffles money around and doesn't actually create more wealth.



Yeah, having to rely on Bob's for the cheapest commodities or anything else can be an obstacle for any market, because people can just as easily go to Bob for all solutions, especially when you are a forger and chances are that his weapons are more better than most of yours. But I don't think he should be removed, just his wares become more expensive, less quality than everyone else. He would still be a reliant source, just people wouldn't be that wild on seeking him they would seek player wares. Bob should be like a conman, who can get his hands on anything but you can't really count on it's quality and origins.

EDIT: By the way, I do know about the Herablist clan, now Naturalist clan. I am planning on joining, and encourage those herbalists alchemists that want to... to join. As I've stated in many occassions through this post, that clan might as well work as the first foundations of an even more effective organization. Right now, it is the initial step onto the way of improvement.
Silvanus2004-11-13 04:40:34
Desdemona, has anyone told you that you write/talk a lot?
Desdemona2004-11-13 04:44:25
QUOTE (Silvanus @ Nov 12 2004, 09:40 PM)
Desdemona, has anyone told you that you write/talk a lot?


No need... I am conscious about it... sad.gif Thanks for stating the obvious, though.
Caedryn2004-11-13 08:13:15
QUOTE (Thorgal @ Nov 12 2004, 11:50 PM)
You must be joking indeed tongue.gif. Even the more expensive shops don't ask 15 gold for a herb. There's plenty of places to get any herb for less than 10 gold a piece. All the other tradeskills need much more time and effort to use, plus they need to buy tons of the now extremely expensive comms, I don't think anyone should pay more than 10 gold for any herb. This isn't Achaea.


Those are, of course, for small orders.

When it comes to alchemists that I work with, and have a good relationship with, the prices are considerably lower - for example, I supply one alchemist friend with whatever horehound/calamus/myrtle I can get (which isn't an awful lot) at 20 per, and sparkleberries at a much cheaper rate.

Let's make it perfectly clear. Lusternia is not Achaea.

However, when you buy herbs from me, you're paying for my time. Unless you're buying a fair few herbs from me, then you're going to pay more - not because I don't like you, or for anything stupid like that, but because herbalism is a sideline.

It's not the be all and end all of what I do, and it's labour intensive compared to Alchemy's 4 seconds to make as many refills as you have herbs for.

As long as I make enough to feed myself, and buy the armour and other curatives I need and use, I'm happy.
Desdemona2004-11-13 08:30:45
QUOTE (caedryn @ Nov 13 2004, 01:13 AM)
It's not the be all and end all of what I do, and it's labour intensive compared to Alchemy's 4 seconds to make as many refills as you have herbs for.

As long as I make enough to feed myself, and buy the armour and other curatives I need and use, I'm happy.


Indeed, harveting can become quite frustrating. Leaving aside the fact that you often don't find herbs, picking plants one by one is time consuming... Especially for the slower races wink.gif So, it does require for a herbalist to feel disposed to invest large amount of time harvesting herbs that are supposed to be there. That is the burden of the trade, but one can't really complain... even for a few amount of herbs selling all of them you can make a fortune, not only to satisfy your needs. I added up the herbs I have, and priced them all at 10gp... it ends up I could make 10k, and I don't have that much herbs. The ones I have the most are about 500 chervil, and 300 galingale. Herbs is not a bad trade. Though if less people are actually able to join the market, prices will tend to be up the roof.
Thorgal2004-11-13 09:01:00
Thing is, most people don't earn a single coin for months with their tradeskill, there's plenty people that NEVER earned anything, with their tradeskill, it only costs them, that's why herbs is so good, you will definately earn money with it.
Desdemona2004-11-13 09:09:46
You will always earn with a trade. Hey, with weapons and other things that are of long use... you can make them, forge them, etc... and charge prices raging from 2k-5k and sometimes even more. Maybe you cannot do this right now, because Lusternia's current economy has just begun booming. Elixirs, too, as long as someone can fill a certain type of elixir you will have hordes of people asking for refills. As for food... everyone gets hungry so they always have a market. If there is any trade, that in my opinion is at loss, where people will probably have less to none profit despite their time investment is poisons. Correct me if I am wrong, but for poisons, you have to kill a poisonous creature and extrat their venom? And venoms aren't really used by many, thanks to the gods you can poison food... but I wonder how long will it take for the first Lusternia's world conspiracy where everyone invited to a banquet gets mysteriously... poisoned biggrin.gif

As with herbs, if you don't have any herbs you can't make any profit. It is too a random skill, every factor within herbs is a variable. So, not everyone is actually to make a huge profit, but probably enough to purchase whatever you need and some leisurement money.
Unknown2004-11-13 13:22:54
The Herbalists have opened up their ranks to join with Alchemists in Serenwilde, so hopefully now some kind of bargain can be sought.
Caedryn2004-11-14 00:10:51
QUOTE (Quidgyboo @ Nov 14 2004, 02:22 AM)
The Herbalists have opened up their ranks to join with Alchemists in Serenwilde, so hopefully now some kind of bargain can be sought.


To be perfectly honest, I have my doubts.

There's a lot of personal fueds being settled, or trying to be settled at present, under the guise of that clan and 'protecting herbs'.

However, there are good, impartial people in that clan. It's going to be interesting seeing how it develops.
Desdemona2004-11-14 00:23:34
I can't really say how the Naturalist clan is coming up, thanks to me not being a member. But in the past, when it was uniquely available for Herbalists, under clanhelp Herbalist you would see a clan with 26 members or so, now that Alchemists have been included, you see a clan with about +30 members. A very good sign, in my opinion. What is best, is that if you carefully saw every member, you could notice people from just about everywhere. But yeah, you can expect a clan or anything (especially a clan that tries to serve a great purpose) to tremble, shake, etc until it's bedrock stable... then they can truly commit to whatever purpose that initially made the clan to be formed. Such clan does need more members, though, seeing how it is trying to handle a world-wide affair, not merely the interests of a small group are in play.
Thorgal2004-11-14 11:43:35
Heh, Serenstone is forming!
Niara2004-11-15 12:48:10
No, Thorgal, it is not. The clan can enforce nothing. The latest public posts show that nicely.
I think the basic idea is nice but if it will work out, we'll see.
Just one more thing. I doubt that really a lot of herbalists make any real gold with their trade and gathering herbs might not cost power or isn't dependend on other trades but it often really is a pain, especially with the hibernation stuff.
Thorgal2004-11-15 13:23:18
QUOTE (Niara @ Nov 15 2004, 02:48 PM)
No, Thorgal, it is not. The clan can enforce nothing.


But they sure tried.
Unknown2004-11-15 13:35:25
QUOTE (Thorgal @ Nov 14 2004, 10:43 PM)
Heh, Serenstone is forming!

My thoughts exactly. They may not have succeeded, but the Oakstone attitude was the same, and their self-appointed mandate rivalled that of the Achaean forestal organization's... Auseklis stepping in was such a relief, but I suppose They planned how to react to this from day one.

I can appreciate the need to make sure plants aren't stripped bare, but they could at least acknowledge that Herbalism is a trade and not promote the idea that it's a calling specifically interwoven with the fate of the Serenwilde. Look at Oakstone. See how everyone hated it. This type of prerogative to 'enemy' people to something forestal (in this case a clan in place of the 'forest', or Oakstone) surely isn't the way to go.
medheriadh2004-11-15 17:40:58
Interesting thread.

My 2 cents

1.- Desdemona, please learn to summarize. You may have interesting ideas, but if you need 1-page long posts to explain them you have a problem. I believe that, if you summarize, people would read them more.

2.- I do believe harvesters should need a small tool (like a sickle) to harvest, the same way jewelers should need some tools to cut gems and craft jewelry (hey, I am a jeweler, so I am talking *against* myself).

3.- Herbalists need everyting from armour to elixirs to clothing. But they don't need it for their *trade*. I believe that what Tsigany tried to say was that Alchemists need Herbalists for their *trade* (that is, with no herbs, there is no alchemy). I myself, for instance, wear no armour and have never used a single herb, because I don't bash or do PK, but I have managed to make some good money with my trade skills (never reaching 10K an hour, though sad.gif). Thus: I need no tailoring or smithing or herbalism or alchemy for my trade.

4.- Running around comm shops trying to find the raw gem commodities can also be time-consuming. I don't believe you herbalists are the only one with supply problems.

5.- Please, don't create another Oakstone of sorts who controls everything. Please, please, please. As it was mentioned early, this is not Achaea. The free flowing nature of the market in Lusternia is very amusing. You find one person selling you one herb at 100 per, telling you it is a very good price, and next you find someone else selling it at 50 per. You have to know people, know your suppliers, how low you can buy and how high you can sell. In all, it makes much more fun than "Selling herbs at the standard Arboretum Research Institute prices".

Regards all
Unknown2004-11-15 23:36:16
The simple fact of the matter is that despite people's best efforts they won't be able to create an Oakstone without Divine aid. And that's been made fairly obvious that it isn't forthcoming. No lastharvest skill and no forest enemying (specifically the side-effect of stripping the Concoctions skillset) means that anything they try to enforce is going to be nothing more than a paper tiger with no teeth. The worst the clan can do is kick you out of the clan if you're in it, or enemy to the clan if you're out of it.
Unknown2004-11-16 08:46:15
No-one here is an idiot, and last thing most of us wants is another Oakstone. And frankly, this is so unlikely to happen, that i don't even consider the idea as plausible.
But like Desdemona with her seemingly bottomless texts, some players desperately need a structured environment in order to flourish while others may live happily in a chaotic context. Really, those two trends are so basic that they can't really be stopped without going into extrem, like Oakstone has shown it.

With some hope, there is the odd chance on a million, that a charismatic leader may arise, leading this group of individuals towards more benefic and benevolent purposes, like the replanting of herbs so everyone could have a good harvest, instead of having a bunch of spoiled brats trying to rule everyone's life.
Because if there is a sure way to piss people off, it is most certainly to tell, a bunch of responsible and independent individuals, how they should live their life or how they should drink their tea.
Unknown2004-11-16 09:36:07
There seems to be alot of misconception about what Oakstone does in Achaea.

Oakstone served to make sure that the forests were protected in their natural state, and that people who violated the forests were delt with in a very constricted IC environment. Oakstone was, in its early stages, as the Sylvans did not exist, a clan for Druids and Sentinels who cared the upmost for Nature everywhere, not just a single forest. It were these people who set foundations for what Oakstone is, and it was a propaganda machine played by people who couldn't control themselves that gave people the picture that Oakstone enforced a pricelist to limit others and made them look greedy.

Further, Oakstone does NOT enforce a pricelist. They endorse it and publish a very respectable pricelist that ensures forestals that abide by it do not get undercut by one another. The respected Guilds that concoct there, Druids - Sylvans - Sentinels, chose, by their own will, to adhere to it, and even then they do not ENFORCE it in all its aspects. Also, the pricelist is made up by one representative from each of the forestal guilds.

An Oakstone can not exist in Lusternia because the Serenwilde's primary goal is their own forest. That would seem enough to put the idea off, and the idea is set off even further if Glomdoring becomes a Commune because it's Tainted.