Oakstone = forestals caring about nature. The forest was their calling, protecting it was their job. In Lusternia, Herbalism is a trade skill. No matter how much Serens, or various individuals who live there, profess that they're protecting nature or the forest or whatever by looking after herbs, Auseklis' statements (herbs can look after themself, etc), the nature of Serenwilde having to look out for themselves first and foremost, and the fact that some citizens of cities can harvest too means that the argument is just... stupid.

When the 'Naturalists' clan acknowledges that Herbalism is a trade skill, and their laws/rules/regulations reflect this, I think they'll have a lot more success. After hearing what has been said about the ability of a single herbalist to destroy plants by just harvesting the last few in a given area, it should be apparent that Herbalists from cities need to be controlled too. They'll be more likely to respect any 'laws' put in place that are there to protect the economy and their own profits, than things there to 'protect' nature.

As far as I'm told, only herbalists can replant plants, and that there makes it more than just a trade skill, it makes them the caretakers, as they're the only ones who can, to keep plantlife from going to nothing. It may be listed as a trade skill, but damned if it can't be seen as something other than one.

While it is a breath of fresh air to see a forest who is basically disregarding the life of plants as important it is utterly frustrating. You can only replant the herbs that you can harvest and I don't really see anyone doing that a whole lot. It is really amusing to see the ur'Guard, the Death Knights being basically the spearhead of the replanting effort. There are just so many factors that harm the way plants grow here that it makes keeping a steady and consistent population close to impossible. Time of the month, weather and Mage Demenses all factor into play on TOP of what the harvesters are doing. I commend the efforts of the herbalists clans but I think it has been proven that they are mocked quite a bit. The only logical way I could think of to keep plant populations protected is for each city to have a garden-esque area where the citizens could plant and harvest to keep the amount at an average and the plants themselves could be monitored.

Reasons like he listed are why an Oakstone organization is needed. And, since Lusternia allows it for all City/Communes, not one biased to the forest-dwelling. The problem is how it'll conflict if you end up having to deal with those in your own City doing things against the organization, while it means they've a low regard for life, but it also means you're holding something before the loyalty you do to Citymates, that is of course you can't get your City to establish laws for it.

Although, *snicker*, I sure had alot of fun enemying a Guildmate to the village of Eleusis in Achaea when I was a Sorcerer.

So get herbalists (edit: all the herbalists, from Celest and Magnagora too) to join the Naturalists clan. Have them change the name to something less forestal, think up a word other than 'overharvesting' (so much bad connotation from Oakstone), and when they're working out policies have them make sure people know it's for the stability of the economy over protection of the forests. It's obviously neccessary to have some sort of clan to regulate the herbs, versus a state of just everyone grabbing what they can find.

If nothing else, then such measure would at least (hopefully) get people to take the clan seriously... right now it's like "omigaw, mini-Jokestone, losers!".

edit: damn, somehow I managed to post a second time quoting myself... sorry.

The problem with the clan as it has already been proven is that they really lack the muscle necessary to enforce their policies and while, I think their efforts are noble, it really is a question of "what gives them the right to try and regulate herbs" The problem is that so many factors play into the quantity and lifespan of herbs in Lusternia that it really is impossible to see if someone overharvested or not. Example:

There is a population of 3 rosehips in a room and the lastharvest says that Felemar harvested 10 plants. Now you can assume that Felemar dropped the count to three but in reality it could be a demense or the time of the month *not intended to sound like plants have a menstrual cycle* or a combination of the two. I think that any sort of system to prevent overharvesting is going to be non-existent until someone can devise a method of actually figuring out how to effectively tell who did what.

Yup. They lack the backing of the Gods to let them enforce this on their own, they'd need agreements from all the City/Communes. However, the term 'overharvest' doesn't need to be changed, and whatever terms supposedly coined by Oakstone, because people have a problem with seeing a relation when infact it does just what Oakstone does, needed things nonetheless. Said people need to get over themselves and their self-righteous 'freedom' of Oakstones 'tyranny' over the Natural world.

Such a clan doesn't need to be a clone of Oakstone. They could simply act to unify the people helping replant, as well as help regulate the herbalists themselves who harvest.

As far as muscle, well, i'm not suggesting they need to enforce anything, but I guess if you think that'd be an essential part of their role, they could simply provide good things to members and boot people who broke the rules. I think a lot of the 'badness' associated with overharvesting in Achaea wasn't so much because it was hard to replant (hell, it seemed pretty easy if it was only a couple of rooms), but rather because: "oh gosh, he KILLED nature!". In Lusternia, once everyone calmed down and stopped frantically harvesting everything, it'd more be a matter of "he harvested more than his alotted amount, and as a result the plant died. he now has to replant it or pay a fee to someone who will." People would be less shocked and appalled if someone caused a plant to die because, gasp, in Lusternia it's just a plant.

Oh, and another thing the clan could do would be inform people what the situation is with plants dying at certain times, or growing slower, and when their slow growth period is. Some people might think they can harvest a plant to 3, not knowing that in winter it dies back.

Tyrannical or not, people hated Oakstone for a reason. Even if some of them didn't know what that reason was, continue to use Oakstone's terms and act in a method identical to theirs, and people will feel a similar hatred towards you too. If you ensure people know that it's a trade skill similar to any other, and that the way you act in regards to plants is the same as they way they act in regards to commodities, people will sympathise with you.

I don't think people are so much into the "Oh for heaven's sake they just killed a plant they must be fined to Nil and back" as much as it is "Oh! My freaking chicken alfredo, they just harvested horehound into non-existence and now the price is forty trillion gold per and alchemists can't work and herbalist can't work"



*edit-Every herbalist should know the peak month for herbs as well, it is right in the AB file for it.

What i'm trying to say is in Achaea, Druids were specifically bonded with nature. The whole "every tree has feelings *naturelove*" thing, you know. Here, it's personal frustration that your hard work has been destroyed, not outrage against an infidel burning the forests.

Once the situation with horehound being harder to find than Eris, and similar things with other herbs, dies down after people become more sensible, your reaction to an overharvest will be more along the lines of "great, another moron" than "omg, someone killed my poor precious baby fealeaf! ripped it out of the ground like it was nothing... *weep*". Just as other people's reactions are when someone buys out all the leather from a commodity shop.

And as for the peak months... my bad, I didn't realise it was listed there. Not a herbalist myself, just trying to suggest a few things.

double post

The difference is, a trade skill or not, a plant is a living thing and should be delt with more care than a piece of leather or how much of it is in stock. But for the most part.. Yea, I think people are ignorant, too.

Auseklis has posted it before, nature can take care of itself, the herbalist clan is protecting their 'rights' to equal share in a profession of cut throats. Now if Auseklis has stressed that nature can take care of itself and severely looks down at any protect the herbs talk, perhaps the herbs do not work like the herbs from achaea, aet, imp, etc, etc. No one really knows, with the new hibernation aspect in and such.

That's a RP point of view. In Achaea Oakstone was really despised because they ended up imposing their RP point of view on everyone (trees are sacred, plants are sacred, blah de blah blah) in a very strong manner. If you disagreed with a city, or an Order, or whatever you could avoid them but you -had- to suck up to Oakstone. My char was in a place where ICly he had to defend Oakstone but myself and other Oakstone defenders could easily see how bad it was on the system.

Here, herbalism is a trade skill that isn't tied directly to any IC principles. I personally suspect that if an area is harvested to 0 it will reset to the normal growth (i.e. plants in some rooms) after the hibernation cycle, although that's just a theory. Regardless having some IC mechanism that treats living things in a special would be very bad for the world. After all, sheep and cows are living but there's no reason for a sheep or cow cartel.

Sheep and cow are at least slightly different and comparing cows to herbs is hardly effective. Herbs drive a huge portion of the economy both from their own sales as well as the sales of alchemists. Cows and sheep do not drive a huge portion of the economy and in fact, I would venture to say that, unless you killed cows and sheep until the world ended, it isn't going to make an overwhelming difference anyway. Besides, people know that there are a good number of the two running around the Basin and even if they ARE all killed, they will be back in a short amount of time, not up to a year.

As an herbalist involved with the clan, I'd say that it definitely should not try to be Oakstone. I wouldn't want everyone to be forced into "caring for nature" and punished for perceived overharvesting. Common sense should be the governing factor in this trade and we should learn to share with each other.

I think that once people harvest their fill of certain herbs (as I'm seeing with the lower skilled herbs, such as marjoram, galingale, and chervil), the availability problems will alleviate themselves. Fewer plants will be harvested and sold as time goes on and people find new things to occupy their time. At present, people need to sell lots of stuff just to be able to afford vials, clothing, weapons, food, etc.

And, please take it easy on the Nature Guard ability, Druids and Wiccans? It's incredibly frustrating that Druids and Wiccans can harvest Balach Swamp (and not even realize that it's a guarded location), and yet every single time I visit, every single location is guarded and I can't pull a single plant out of the ground! Makes me want to start smashing things...

replanting is not a form of caregiving its a form of increasing your supply. Most people who plant or replant or not doing so the plant can now live again, they do it to provide more of that plant in the area. Like Hemp plants in the middle of Natinal Forests. Or someone planting a rose garden. Or a Farmer planting wheat.

Only people with the Nature Skillset I think could argue that they wish to protect nature in an active way, instead of in an activist way like humans do in real life. (which by the way never actually protects nature but thats a symantics debate) Everyone else is increasing their supply so they can increase profits. And if your agruing that your careing for plants.. you shouldn't be picking them and selling them.

What Oakstone did was not just an RP view, though. Someone had to replant and fix exterminations, or there'd be no plantlife there. And, as for sucking up to Oakstone? You can live your whole life in Achaea without taking any sort of note that you're speaking to a member of the Council, buying herbs, salves, and elixirs from most of them. It's not something we flaunted that we were. I was actually amused that I made enemies of people I'd never met as a member of the Council, though, so perhaps people just have a skewed view. Further, it was an RP view backed by the Gods, Lady Gaia - Lord Lupus - Lady Demeter, so really.. it wasn't just a bunch of tree-huggers with firepower.

Now, as for them growing back regardless here in Lusternia, I'm interested to see how the natural economy will look if people kept harvesting everything to 0 and made no effort to fix any of it, that's without the Gods intervening.