Necromancy downgraded?!

by Murphy

Back to Common Grounds.

Unknown2004-11-13 22:43:46
QUOTE (Silvanus @ Nov 13 2004, 04:33 PM)
It doesn't give grace, but thats not the point. Most people nowadays have a fast connection, assuming you and I fought one on one, I'd come back instantly and ghost instantly before you got balance back.


If it takes balance, it still gives me time to put up icewalls or wield an eye sigil, and since you don't have grace to stop me from attacking you when you come out, I'd say that's a fair point.

QUOTE (Brona_Feyranti @ Nov 13 2004, 04:43 PM)
Rafael, stop dying and then I'll see that you know how to use your skills.

Edit: Also, Transmog in Imperian was not limited to time.  If you had the SANGUIS, you could transmog as often as you wished.


I'm not the one complaining here about downgrades, and for the matter, I've only died in group combat, which while furthering my point about group combat consistant here, is no backing that I don't know how to use my skills. I figured I must be doing something right if I get targetted first so often, but thanks for the meaningful comment and reply to my post that handed you your bum and all the trimmings concerning your inabilities.
Silvanus2004-11-13 22:45:40
QUOTE (Sylphas @ Nov 13 2004, 04:42 PM)
Why not return it to how it was, and then just make Liches unable to use the skill?


The whole point of the downgrade was so we couldn't ghost afterwards or put up again. But with the 8-9 second eq and the power loss in your prompt, was overdone. Plus, we come back defenceless, and most likely can be caught again (a teleport takes 5 seconds, when you come down you have 4 seconds to stop them from moving, which isn't hard).
Silvanus2004-11-13 22:47:02
QUOTE (Rafael Lenu @ Nov 13 2004, 04:43 PM)
If it takes balance, it still gives me time to put up icewalls or wield an eye sigil, and since you don't have grace to stop me from attacking you when you come out, I'd say that's a fair point.


Assuming I'm icewalled in, I'd catacomb out. But if I was Liched, as a Soul I still wouldn't be able to get out, and you'd have 8-9 seconds of eq to do anything you want with me. Plus, putting the eye sigil on the ground, I won't be able to leave as a Soul, your point is pretty moot.
Malevius2004-11-13 22:54:28
Perhaps it should be that they come back with 0 power so that they cannot put lich back up right away or ghost away right away. But I would have to say the eq loss, especially if it's as long as they say might be too much, that sort of kills any chance of getting away if you happen to reform and they come to you.

I can see coming back with some disadvantages, such as power, but coming back completely defenseless with eq gone for that long seems kind of bad.
Unknown2004-11-13 22:56:03
QUOTE (Silvanus @ Nov 13 2004, 04:47 PM)
Assuming I'm icewalled in, I'd catacomb out. But if I was Liched, as a Soul I still wouldn't be able to get out, and you'd have 8-9 seconds of eq to do anything you want with me. Plus, putting the eye sigil on the ground, I won't be able to leave as a Soul, your point is pretty moot.


I've no idea what catacomb does, but you seem to have all your t's crossed on making up for the lack thereof with your other skills. Now, assuming there's eye sigils on all adjacent rooms, you would have a problem. Perhaps you should bring some mushroom sigils. Other than that, you don't have any trouble liching and getting away as a lich, or vitae/ghosting and getting away. Why're you still complaining? If your skills alone can't fix your problems, you only need to buy some mushroom sigils and be a bit cautious about where you choose to fight, mushrooming the eye sigils or avoiding them entirely. That's hardly work, and you not having grace is a big help to us, giving us the small window chance to do something about it. The point stands because you have every chance to fix things, only you're too lazy to make a checklist of what will stop your escape.
Unknown2004-11-13 22:58:00
QUOTE (Malevius @ Nov 13 2004, 04:54 PM)
Perhaps it should be that they come back with 0 power so that they cannot put lich back up right away or ghost away right away. But I would have to say the eq loss, especially if it's as long as they say might be too much, that sort of kills any chance of getting away if you happen to reform and they come to you.

I can see coming back with some disadvantages, such as power, but coming back completely defenseless with eq gone for that long seems kind of bad.


The lich reforms and the enemy closes in on them again, well that's not the skills fault. That's a persistant foe. Perhaps time should just stop because the liched person couldn't move far enough away, or accept that death will happen sometimes.
Silvanus2004-11-13 23:00:14
QUOTE (Rafael Lenu @ Nov 13 2004, 04:56 PM)
I've no idea what catacomb does, but you seem to have all your t's crossed on making up for the lack thereof with your other skills. Now, assuming there's eye sigils on all adjacent rooms, you would have a problem. Perhaps you should bring some mushroom sigils. Other than that, you don't have any trouble liching and getting away as a lich, or vitae/ghosting and getting away. Why're you still complaining? If your skills alone can't fix your problems,  you only need to buy some mushroom sigils and be a bit cautious about where you choose to fight, mushrooming the eye sigils or avoiding them entirely. That's hardly work, and you not having grace is a big help to us, giving us the small window chance to do something about it. The point stands because you have every chance to fix things, only you're too lazy to make a checklist of what will stop your escape.


Catacomb tarot is universe tarot. But, if you have an eye sigil down in the room where we are a Soul, we cannot move at all. We are stuck there to come back, and you can do absolutely anything to me in those 9 seconds, like.. putting me to sleep? Because I have absolutely no defences. And, tell me if you see anywhere on these lists that mention anything bout a mushroom sigil:
QUOTE
You have gained the following abilities in Enchantment:
Fist                The fist sigil.
Rings              Enchanted rings hold up to 10 charges.
Pentagram*          Protect yourself from attacks.
Void*              Destroy magical shields.
Flame              The flame sigil.
Deathsight*        See ripples in the cosmos of life.
Window*            Locate another player.
Waterwalk*          Walk upon the water's surface.
Bracelets          Enchanted bracelets hold up to 20 charges.
Fear*              Conjure up primal fear.
Enfeeble*          Shrivel the muscles of your foe.
Diminish*          Make a person shrink.
Key                The key sigil.
Necklaces          Enchanted necklaces hold up to 30 charges.
Enlarge*            Make a person grow.
Web*                Bind someone in a web.
Sleep*              Put your enemy to sleep.
Heirlooms          Enchanted heirlooms hold up to 40 charges.
Greatrobes          Great robes may be enchanted for protection.
DimensionPockets    Create mini rifts from ordinary items.
Eye                The eye sigil.
Wands              Enchanted wands hold up to 50 charges.
Curse              Cursed items cannot be removed.
Monolith            The monolith sigil.
Crowns              Enchanted crowns hold up to 70 charges.
Statues            Enchant a statue and affix runes onto it.
Paintings          Create enchanted doorways between two paintings.
Magicrown          The Crown of the Magi is enchantable and reduces mana cost.
Skills marked with a (*) indicates a spell that may be enchanted on an item.

Fist                The fist sigil.
Rings              Enchanted rings hold up to 10 charges.
Pentagram*          Protect yourself from attacks.
Void*              Destroy magical shields.
Flame              The flame sigil.
Dig*                Unearth buried treasures.
Cleanse*            Wash yourself squeaky clean.
Scry*              Locate another player.
Kingdom            This special ray of Malkuth clots blood in the body.
Bracelets          Enchanted bracelets hold up to 20 charges.
Gust*              Blow someone in the direction of a wind.
Levitate*          Float on a cushion of air.
Waterbreathe*      Extract air from water.
Beauty              This special ray of Netzach regenerates the ego.
Key                The key sigil.
Necklaces          Enchanted necklaces hold up to 30 charges.
Doorblast*          Blast open jammed doors.
Icewall*            Conjure up an obstructing icewall.
Ignite*            Attack with elemental fire.
Web*                Bind someone in a web.
Perfection          This special ray of Tipheret regenerates mana.
Heirlooms          Enchanted heirlooms hold up to 40 charges.
Greatrobes          Great robes may be enchanted for protection.
Mercy              This special ray of Gedulah regenerates health.
DimensionPockets    Create mini rifts from ordinary items.
Eye                The eye sigil.
Wands              Enchanted wands hold up to 50 charges.
Curse              Cursed items cannot be removed.
Monolith            The monolith sigil.
Crowns              Enchanted crowns hold up to 70 charges.
Statues            Enchant a statue and affix runes onto it.
Paintings          Create enchanted doorways between two paintings.
Magicrown          The Crown of the Magi is enchantable and reduces mana cost.
Malevius2004-11-13 23:02:05
Well no, I can see an eq loss, but they are saying like 8 or 9 seconds of loss which seems kind of long. This Mud is pretty fast paced, and anyways if the foe can get to you so easily right after you come back that entirely defeats the purpose of any sort of escape from the running away as a soul thing anyways.
Unknown2004-11-13 23:10:55
QUOTE (Silvanus @ Nov 13 2004, 05:00 PM)
Catacomb tarot is universe tarot. But, if you have an eye sigil down in the room where we are a Soul, we cannot move at all. We are stuck there to come back, and you can do absolutely anything to me in those 9 seconds, like.. putting me to sleep? Because I have absolutely no defences. And, tell me if you see anywhere on these lists that mention anything bout a mushroom sigil:


Well, then I suggest you take good use of that catacomb tarot. No way to blow up eye's? I'm going to drop them all over Celest, then. smile.gif Also, I suppose you should start watching what you're doing and where before going into a fight if you need those escape abilities, or perhaps understanding when the getting's good.

Also, you come out of ghost and use that tarot, that's still time to follow you to come through with you, or stop you from touching it, that assuming touching it is stopped by things like paralysis, shrivelled arms, you know.. things that would normally stop you from touching something!

QUOTE
Well no, I can see an eq loss, but they are saying like 8 or 9 seconds of loss which seems kind of long. This Mud is pretty fast paced, and anyways if the foe can get to you so easily right after you come back that entirely defeats the purpose of any sort of escape from the running away as a soul thing anyways.


However long your lich, you get to escape in whatever way, and we don't see you leave that way. We have to deal with whoever else you were with fighting before we can start finding out which way you went to proceed, and if it's a Knight, we have to get scry enchantments to know - we don't have a locate ability of our own. Further, I don't think they intended lich to be the be it all to escaping death, a good chance - yes, but not a sure-fire deal. If we use our trans skill to fully heal us and shield up, you can still drop a mushroom and ice/block all the exits, thus disabling our means of escape.
Silvanus2004-11-13 23:12:51
QUOTE (Rafael Lenu @ Nov 13 2004, 05:10 PM)
Well, then I suggest you take good use of that catacomb tarot. No way to blow up eye's? I'm going to drop them all over Celest, then.  smile.gif  Also, I suppose you should start watching what you're doing and where before going into a fight if you need those escape abilities, or perhaps understanding when the getting's good.

Also, you come out of ghost and use that tarot, that's still time to follow you to come through with you, or stop you from touching it, that assuming touching it is stopped by things like paralysis, shrivelled arms, you know.. things that would normally stop you from touching something!


But the fact that once Bob is gone, inscribing cards cost palettes, to make a palette you need tints, and tints require rare herbs, and goldtint requires 1 gold bar. A catacomb tarot takes 8 applications, so for every 1000+ gold, I can get away, while still losing 20 power.
Unknown2004-11-13 23:15:12
QUOTE (Silvanus @ Nov 13 2004, 05:12 PM)
But the fact that once Bob is gone, inscribing cards cost palettes, to make a palette you need tints, and tints require rare herbs, and goldtint requires 1 gold bar. A catacomb tarot takes 8 applications, so for every 1000+ gold, I can get away, while still losing 20 power.


I thought it ranged from 10 to 20 power? If so, really.. let's not be so negative in something you've got so much of. This skill really looks like something to save the life of higher levels, 80+, not wanting to lose a whole lot of exp. 1000 gold and 20 power really isn't all that much to save the valuable exp from high up levels.
Silvanus2004-11-13 23:17:44
QUOTE (Rafael Lenu @ Nov 13 2004, 05:15 PM)
I thought it ranged from 10 to 20 power? If so, really.. let's not be so negative in something you've got so much of. This skill really looks like something to save the life of higher levels, 80+, not wanting to lose a whole lot of exp. 1000 gold and 20 power really isn't  all that much to save the valuable exp from high up levels.


Only Nihilists can do that, Ur'Guard are seriously screwed if they ever get into a situation similar to this. If you eye sigil your gates and any exit in Celest, a Ur'Guard's only choice is to die, or attempt to teleport out, which isn't that hard for me.. but I'm usually flying. And its 1000 gold for 1 gold bar, thats only 1 tint out of the 5 tints. A redtint requires rosehips, which I've never seen in my life before.
Zolas2004-11-13 23:18:49
Vitae - Costs 10p, lets you use Ghost after reviving, doesn't cuase Eq loss, is available to anyone

Lichdom - Costs 20p, leaves you with no power after reviving, causes Eq loss, doesn't help much with escaping, is a Transcendent specialized skill. Oh, and it affects you positively at night and negatively in the day.

There's problems there.
Unknown2004-11-13 23:21:16
QUOTE (Silvanus @ Nov 13 2004, 05:17 PM)
Only Nihilists can do that, Ur'Guard are seriously screwed if they ever get into a situation similar to this. If you eye sigil your gates and any exit in Celest, a Ur'Guard's only choice is to die, or attempt to teleport out, which isn't that hard for me.. but I'm usually flying. And its 1000 gold for 1 gold bar, thats only 1 tint out of the 5 tints. A redtint requires rosehips, which I've never seen in my life before.


There's alot of space in Southgard to run around in, lose ghost form, then ask for a quick teleport out - or set one up beforehand. That's not so hard to fix. Although, rosehips are cheap. Real cheap. Ad 19 has them at 10 gold per, and if you're paying 1k for a single gold bar, you're being ripped. Shop around a bit, or get someone not enemied to other places that you to shop there for you.
Unknown2004-11-13 23:24:01
QUOTE (Zolas @ Nov 13 2004, 05:18 PM)
Vitae - Costs 10p, lets you use Ghost after reviving, doesn't cuase Eq loss, is available to anyone

Lichdom - Costs 20p, leaves you with no power after reviving, causes Eq loss, doesn't help much with escaping, is a Transcendent specialized skill. Oh, and it affects you positively at night and negatively in the day.

There's problems there.


Lichdom allows you talk away without having to be seen in the room first, provided there's no eye sigils - up to you to make sure they don't exist. I get a chance to stop you if you ghost. I see up's and down's to both, sounds good.
Daganev2004-11-14 01:16:50
I kinda skimmed through this post... But my complaint has never been about lichdom's soulcage like ability. I honestly thought that Valek talking about having imortality was a problem. I always saw lichdom as a state of being. I have bonuses during night, negetives during day. This makes me an undead creature and I will roleplay myself as such.

Could the changes me made so its not a type of Soulcage or Vitae, and instead is just a differerence in Stats, and being immune to contagion and such?

For example. It costs 10 power. It turns you into a liche. No dieing involved. When you turn into a liceh Deathsight says.. Daganev has commited ritual sucide or something?


One thing we don't need is more skills to bring you back to life after you die. We have vitae and Trans planar for that.


Edit: And I was really looking forward to roleplaying my undead Tae'dae... now I can't.
Murphy2004-11-14 01:23:50
It seems to me that rafael is very pro this idea, and as a passing observation I can see why. Being celestine and all it maust be a little annoying to see us just ghost and bail after lichdom.

However mate, if celest were to pick its battles well or plan even better, they could come raid during daytime, where viscanti warriors only have 16 str after all athletics skills etc.

I can just see people triggers the death of a magnagorian to drop eye sigil, making our trans skill pretty useless.

the top 3 skills of any skillset should be worth spending the extra 700 odd lessons to get. I mean trans planar skill you reincarnate at megalith minimal if any xp loss, now thats worth transing.

I don't think its a good idea to threaten the devine of lusternia with financial recourse if its not fixed is a good idea. personally im not about to forget necromancy but in hindsight I wish i had of held off transing it...but whats done is done.

Perhaps during the 10 second eq loss on regaining lichdom, you have something which prohibits power useage for 15 seconds? that way a skilled fighter can still hold the licher and perhaps make him not be able to ghost away?

other than that I'll just have to trigger ghost on < 700 health and be done with it. personally i don't like dying twice to the same bloke, and seeing him get twice the XP for killing me.

Rafael rhysus etc will always push for magnagorian downgrades, while we will always push to be made better, such is human nature.

On that note, I'm sure the devine would look after any real over downgrading once made aware of it
Silvanus2004-11-14 01:33:36
QUOTE (Murphy @ Nov 13 2004, 07:23 PM)
It seems to me that rafael is very pro this idea, and as a passing observation I can see why. Being celestine and all it maust be a little annoying to see us just ghost and bail after lichdom.

Shut up, no need to insult the others.
Shiri2004-11-14 01:38:52
QUOTE (Silvanus @ Nov 14 2004, 02:33 AM)
Shut up, no need to insult the others.


Calm down Silvanus, he wasn't being insulting. I perfectly understand his point, to be honest, he's just saying that he can sympathise with us getting annoyed that we kill you and you just come back and ghost away at absolutely no experience loss. He has a point.
Daganev2004-11-14 01:50:03
Why does lichdom have to be an anti death skill? It has so many other uses. But with the current change, it makes those uses very limited.