I don't think I've heard anyone say the Taint is an essentially harmless pest, but let's just look at the Taint throughout history.

The Taint is the detritus of Kethuru, the Great Soulless God out to obliterate all of creation, including the Elder Gods. When it was filled with Kethuru's presence, it either turned things into the undead or mutated everything it touched, including two Great Spirits of Nature. It completely corrupted two planes of existence, a higher plane and the elemental plane of earth. It partially corrupted the ethereal plane. On the prime material plane, it corrupted the entire city of Magnagora and surrounding area, including a forest that was protected by one of the Great Trees. Kethuru is now re-sealed and the Taint does not have the same mutagenic properties that it once did, but certainly there is no doubt that whatever it touched now reflects some aspect of this alien evil. From the Demon Lords of Nil to the blood rituals of Glomdoring to the pollution of the Sea of Despair, it should be obvious the Taint changed the face of the world with more effect than a 'harmless pest' would warrant.

If you'd drop the Crow/Taint buisness and concentrated on Raven and Mother Night. I think you'd be in a much better position. Gloriana never was a 'happy' place like Serenwilde or Ackleberry. The political upheaval you'd cause would be enormous in my opinion.

I was more talking about 'the earth here is tainted' (or whatever the Geomancer skill causes) than things that are tainted or the original Taint. Tainted things are by nature vicious and more likely to cause evil acts, I had assumed that was obvious (wander around Glomdoring or the Blasted Lands a bit and see how much more than irritating they can be). The 'taint' spread by the Geomancers is what I was referring to above, which is essentially harmless.

Which is, ultimately, the part we are actually most concerned with, given that they are the people we are fighting against. So saying that what they spread is harmless so openly basically tells those of us who are trying to oppose that spread that we are flat out wrong. Kind of a major let down when we're already getting shafted on any attempt to restrain ourselves from indiscriminate killing.

I think what he was getting at with the statement regarding the Taint being harmless, is that it's not...ACTUAL Taint. It's a Taint created by the Geomancers (it just isn't as good as the real thing ). It's like saying that an animatronic tiger is as deadly as a real tiger. You know it's a robot tiger, so it's not as scary as a real one, it's not as fast, powerful, strong or vicious as a real one. I mean if you're a mouse (as mortals are) you wouldn't care what sort of tiger it is, it's still big and it can still crush you, and scary as hell. BUT if you're a divine, you know the difference between the real tiger and fake one, so you know which one to be afraid of.

Probably not the best comparitive analogy there, but hopefully you get the idea.

If it's so harmless why bother fighting it? Because whilst that geomancer made Taint may not be very scary, it is used by scary people to do scary things, and those scary people need that "unscary" Taint to do their scary things.

You could always say why be scared of Nil? The demons and such there aren't that powerful. The bloody Nihilists that swarm all over you after you kick an imp, however, are possibly one of the most frightening things I've ever come across. They need Nil for their frightening power.

The Taint is a tool, wielded by people to be used a weapon. If you take away that tool, then those who wield it are no longer as fearsome as they were when they still had that weapon.

Defeat the Taint and Magnagora would be screwed. They'd lose almost all of their powers, since they are derived from the Taint. I couldn't imagine a single Celestian that wouldn't mind seeing Magnagora in that particular position.

More like a stuffed, dead tiger vs a real one, but yes.

Actually, a better example: Imagine that computers could kill people at the touch of a button. Those computers would be Taint. Then imagine that the power source (Kethuru) got switched off and completely disconnected. What the geomancers do is make computers. Whilst they can't kill people at the touch of a button as they don't work any more, they can still be made dangerous by someone trained to use them without power (imagine having someone's monitor and hard drive thrown at your head).

The Gods aren't scared of many things, but Kethuru and his emanations are one of those few.

Jerah, you make some nice points in there, and I agree with you somewhat. The city is indeed shapping up, and yet many still seem to just put down teh zealot like nature that's being put out.

On the whole thing azs to why Celest is agianst the taint, I think you're missing something. Ohkay, so the taint doesn't do whatever it's been getting said to do. How about this though, it's not the light; if anything, the taint represents darkness. Maybe instead of saying that Celest is agisnt the taint because it "kills" this and mutates that, you can say that Celest is against the taint because it is darkness, and you are banishing it by bringing forth the light.

Contrary to your beliefs, it isn't the zealots that are doing Celest the most harm - its more the other two factions of the city, and the sooner you can align them with the zealots, at least enough to work together cohesively, then the sooner Celest will stop being Magnagora's chewtoy, and start being an actual challenge.

Okay, I went a little overboard. I know no one was intentionally trying to shut down Celest. I just get a little tired of working so hard to try to shape Celest up and having it dismissed so often, even by citizens. People are always attacking our leadership and our cause and such, I can take it a bit personally and get a little touchy at times.

My point wasn't that the Taint -is- harmless, I don't believe that, based on the history and the things I can see of it in the present. I just sometimes think there are a few too many people who try to -tell- me its harmless sometimes. But I do understand where everyone is coming from.

As to the Geomancer's taint, I can accept that it isn't as bad because they are certainly no Soulless gods. I do, however, maintain the opinion that we don't know what will happen if any Soulless god comes back. For all we know, they could just grab up control again.

I think it's important that we have more of a reason for fighting the Taint than just ideological differences. Just saying 'it's darkness' is pretty weak. I'm not saying I'm going to switch sides just because someone says the Taint is okay, but still, ideally, I like a bit of reason.

Anyway, I'm sorry to anyone I seemed to be attacking. Seems I may have been a bit over-stressed.

Also, to Asarnil: I firmly support the zealots in Celest. I try to be one, if a bit more subtly then many. I don't like the more tolerant approach, it's boring. But, I'm not a dictator, and people can contest, so sometimes one has to work a bit under the radar with some views.

When I see water from a aquamancer or trees from a druid, I get nervous, I get battle ready, and I percieve a lot looking for danger. I also try to find people who can taint the area,.. this ins't because I think water or trees are dangerous, its because I think that the people the waters and tree represent are a potenttial danger.

Why can't this be applied to your view of Tainted ground as well? WHy does it have to be "evil incarnate" for you to be against it?

I like daganev's thinking there. It's simple and works.

That's exactly why you should be fighting the taint. It's opposite to your religion and belifes in every way, such that it needs to be gotten rid of.

What I was saying about it being darkness isn't just that you're aginst it because it's simple darkness. How about, it's not the light. Celest is founded on the followings of the Supernals. What do they seek? They want everything in the light. What is teh darkness doing, it's covering people from the light, it's "destroying" the light, it's seeking to keep everyting from being in the light. See how that matches up with the foundations of Celest, and can still be expanded upon? You can take these basic principles, and keep on going from them, till you have afull set of reasons as to why the taint is bad,a nd why to get rid of it.

The zealousy you speek of having within Celest, it should be more along teh lines of, "let's spread the light," and less along the lines of, "oh, taint evil, destroy it."

"The light must be spread over the liand, and the taint causes a darkness that corrupts prevents the light. So, lets go destroy that taint, and bring the light back to those that were tainted." I think that needs to be more of what Celest is saying, and going for.

I am all about sperading the Light. I speak up for it all the time. That simply was not my point right -now-.

The Light is not necessarily actual light. That's just a thing we call it. And the Taint certainly isn't darkness, the Taint is the Taint. We oppose Magnagora because its values oppose those of the Light, and we want to spread the Light whereas they want to spread their Empire. The Taint, however, we fight because it has done bad things, and will continue to do bad things. It can and -has- destroyed a plane of Light.
I am not saying that the Taint needs to be evil incarnate. I just didn't like hearing it mentioned so harmlessly is all. This is me speaking purely OOC. Jerah with always fight the Taint. But as a player, I don't want to be on the side that is just a bunch of loonies with a crackpot theory.

Now, as has been established, that is not the case. So, I am fine and happy, and I apologize for sounding harsh previously.

I think only because Auseklis thinks that the taint spread by geomancers is rather harmless doesn't mean that we mortals think the same. For a Divine many things are quite harmless while countless mortals will claim otherwise, that's fine.

Understandable that you get nervous when you see flooded or forested areas, Daganev. Getting jumped here and there is good for some paranoia but I would say that most forested rooms outside Serenwilde are just there because someone removed taint in that room.

Auseklis would be quite correct in saying that the Geomancer taint is rather harmless. It doesn't mutate people standing in it, it doesn't turn grasslands into wastelands, and it can be easily cleared.

Check out the Barren Lands if you want to see what real taint does. That wasn't a geomancer. And look at any Viscanti. That wasn't a geomancer who made them either. All we can do is blow up rocks or make the ground fart, basically.

Nil's an even better example, having been exposed for longer. There's some pretty nasty stuff there, given it looked more like Celest to start with.

Niara is a herbalist and the geomancer taint spoils her trade. She doesn't make much fuzz about it but often removes it when there are still plants growing. Fortunately the geomancers have learned that they need herbs too and taint rooms where plants can grow only occasionally which I am quite thankful.

I like that analogy. Now I'm seeing images of Geomancers chucking computers at people and swearing.