Actually, this latest tweak in mages wasn't planned but was an issue we ran across when going over the code (which was, as was explained, looking at the planar skill rather than the planar/elementalism combination). If you were transcendent planar already, you probably won't notice a difference. If you were transcendent elementalism and inept planar, you probably will see a difference.

We had also thought this would increase the 'pulse' cycle, but if it isn't I'm sure Roark will investigate.

See, here's the thing that the developers don't seem to understand (well, actually, they might understand completely and just be working on it, but I'm going to explain it anyway): It's not the mage formulas that are bogus, it's the skills themselves. We just don't have enough demesne effects, and they don't *do* enough. The upgrade to demesne speed is a good thing, definately, but making three effects (icefloe, jellies, needlerain - those are the only three that affect an opponent standing in our demesne every demesne tick) act a bit faster isn't going to do much for us. 2 times 0 still equals 0, if that made sense.

We just need more demesne effects. I have some ideas for them, but I'm not the envoy, and I haven't seen our envoy in around in quite a while so I haven't gotten to talk to him about anything. (Nor have I seen our envoy ever fight. Hmm...)

Thank you for coming on and discussing the recent changes Estarra. I do feel that increasing the pulse speeds will help a bit, but I am also in agreement with the others that the problems with the mage archetypes are more centered around the dearth of actual effective combat abilities.

You verified that it was upgraded. Your skill ranks have no impact on the rate of speed, but only on how long the spell lasts. Bear in mind that previously they fired off every 18 seconds. So if you are getting 9 to 10 seconds then that's am 8 to 9 second upgrade.

Who said this was the last change? Last time there was an upgrade (with more planned) people bitched and whined about "That's it?" Makes me want to not continue with the remaining plans...



The spell length would only positively impact people who did not trans Planar. As for speed, see my last post.

My demesne abilities were always pulsing at around 10 seconds. Everyone else I have spoken with seemed to have the same pulse times too. If they were suppose to be at around 18 seconds before, then I guess a few others and I were bugged.

Have to concur with geb here. Was always around a 10 second pulse for me. If it were ever 18 seconds I'd never have even bother putting them up at all. Not that they helped regardless.

And I apologize for the venting frustration we are all seemingly pointing your way Roark. It isn't intended to belittle your efforts. We're simply not seeing results, and that's disconcerting given the leaps and bounds that were made with Warriors early on in what seemed the blink of an eye in comparison. To me it's so far felt like certain archetypes have been favored overall on the dev schedule, and while I'm sure this isn't really the case, I can't see anything to really dispute it either. So we are left in the dark.

If any class was favoured then it would be the warrior archtype who were fully upgraded; Guardians skillset were downgraded somewhat (nihilists) or upgraded somewhat (celestines) Like Lord Roark said, more updates for the mage Archtype will come and be patitent

Roark,

Actually, I have to agree with Rhysus and Geb, my demesne effects have always ran on a 9 to 10 seconds intervals. I've fought a few times and tested their speed frequently before the recent changes. There is virtually no noticeable speed difference, if any at all. If other Magi could possibly post what the intervals of their demesne effects took place, I'm sure it can be looked more into.

We do not mean to belittle all the efforts you have put into these changes, but it seems that they do not address what we perceives as the core issues with our archetype.

It has been said many times before our class cannot do any decent damage to anyone unless they have high susceptibility to our skills, we cannot afflict worth anything, and our physical defenses is absurd. An average knight with 16 strength do over 1.6k to me in two slashes with tower, stoneskin, and greatrobes and is virtually unhidered at all by my demesne with all the effects up. I think what all of the Magi are thinking is why are we so much weaker than any other classes. The playing field isn't just slanted, it's virtually a vertical wall.

The way Achaea countered that problem was increasing stoneskin's effectiveness by intelligence ratios. They also added in Diamondskin which did the same and decreased cutting damage.

Demesne really remind me of groves which I personally love. However they seem more passive than defensive. Groves only really had two attacks, thorns which did about 200 damage and grove lightning which was dependent on intelligence and could be used even while completely prone. However Demesne are much more portable than a grove seeing as you could only use them in a natural forest or jungle room.

Taking that much damage is frightening and I know I take at least 1,000 or more. I think as a class you need more direct damage over time and at least more forms of avoiding physical blows. Aquamancers could make blades pass through themselves like liquifying the impact and Geomancers could just turn into a stone or something at random.

Mages from my perspective look more like a support class. And from the perspective of group combat a Mage does rather well in a group should they have a demesne up. A aquamancer staffcast has no range should they choose a portion of land that has straight exits. Like at the Pool of Stars. You can cast the whole 10 rooms away.

I personally would love to be an Aquamancer given I had the lessons to do so. They have much more flavour than a Guardian class.

Achaea made their Magi too powerful when both stoneskin and diamondskin were affected by intelligence. Also when their defenses were stacked with runes, earthshield, and toughness, their defenses were insane. However, Lusternia do not have these problems but instead Magi are allowed to wear limited armor (greatrobes), and wield tower shield. I have no doubt protections like this would be balanced on Achaea, but here, the physical damage that can be dished out by Knights are much greater than the protection that Magi are allowed.

Demesne is certainly more portable than a grove, but it is far inferior in terms offensive or defensive capacity. For supporting purposes we might do decently, but we have virtually nothing else good going for us.

Umm, even knights can take 1800 damage a round from another knight, that's not just for mages, conclusion, mage damage resistance is fine as it is...the only changes mages need far as I can tell, is supersling power cost reduced to 2, demesne damage doubled or tripled, and staff point damage boosted, cause they only have one element to work with, so if their target is resistant to that element, they can't dent them. I think the rest works fine how it is.

Yeah, I know that some knights still take a ton of damage from other knights. But the difference is that a Knight usually have very high health and great regeneration. I think I saw a Merian Paladin went from 2600 health to 4200 health with surge. Magi don't have these extra health so we cannot heal as much or take as much damage. I'm not asking that Magi should be incredibly tanky and able to take tons of damage. But if I'm taking 1.4k to 1.6k from a Knight, that's roughly 63% to 73% of my total health, with a base health of 2200, there is no way I could last more than 3 rounds against a knight. On the other hand, I only do around 600 to 800 damage with my staff, and against a knight that constantly sip health and eat moss, I don't think I'll ever be able to kill with damage at all.

I don't know if anyone else has tested, but I've seen Great Robes' defenses to be pretty useless (ignore the armor stats, test damage)

I actually am glad for these changes. My effects have deffinately speeded up about 9 seconds. I think teh peoepl complaining abouty teh effects not speeding up, are thoe who have their specialization, and planar both quite high up. I know my planar isn't all too high, and I just lost Turtle with the putting of NeedleRain in. So yay for me getting faster effects.

And what I think many are missing, is that this wasn't a change by the envoy reports, but a change in something that was wrong with the coding. It was suppoused to look at one thing, but was instead looking at another, and not working the intended way.

And beyond that though, I don't do much requiring damage, but can deffinaetly see the problem ebing mentioned and why it needs to be fixed.

Like I said before: Id prefer to see Jellies drop their stun and instead cause constant afflictions based on them being poisonous (paralysis, itching, sensitivity, etc.) on a 5 second or 6 second basis, itd be a lot more effectiove.
I would like to post here the changes that have been transpiring towards Aquamancer for the benefit of those who don't know yet:

Aquamancy...

- Jellyfish will do some nominal damage.
- Typhoon will forcibly slam you on the ground hard enough to overcome
levitation defense.
- Liquidform will randomly heal health, heal mana, or cure an affliction
at regular intervals while you are in the form. (Though engulf remains
the same.)
- Liquidform will last a little longer.
- Bubble will last longer and move around faster.
- Maelstrom will not be stopped by shield-like defences, and it does
more damage than before. (I went ahead and did the same to geomancy
pollute and druidry fure...)

Aquamancers now have needle rain. Check your AB help file for more
information.

Demesne effects will be faster now. Also, the formula for how long the demesne
effects hang around was changed. Originally (like a year ago) we coded things
to get beefed up by a parent skill. (*Not* to be confused with a
specialization. Elemenatlism is not the "parent" of Aquamancy; Aquamancy is
rather a form of Elementalism.) Planar is the parent of Elementalism (and its
specialized forms), so it was originally using skill ranks in Planar alone to
determine how long your demesne spells last. Long ago we changed that design,
but demesnes got overlooked.

The final design for skillset boosts, which is commonly used elsewhere in
nearly every skillset, is that the parent skillset provides a mild boost but
the main skill gives a large boost. For example, increased Tailoring makes you
sew longer lasting items, and increased Arts will also give a mild boost to the
durability of what you sew; that's a very common theme throughout the
skillsets. This means that skill ranks in Elementalism will give a strong boost
to the length of time for your demesne spells, while Planar will give only a
nominal boost. For those of you who have not transed Planar, this means that
your demesne spells will last longer then previously and thus should be viewed
as an upgrade.

Tsunami has been changed. It will not move people around any more. Now
it will knock people down and drown them.

Illusions...

Alter Reality will stay in the room it was cast in.
- Dispell may now be targetted at the illusionist's option.
- Phantom's equilibrium cost is lowered.
- Phantom will last longer.
- Phantom will also do psychic damage.
- Phantom has a chance of binding someone in shadows (like web).
- New spell available in Fabled if an aquamancer or geomancer can also
create a meld.

It is obvious Roark is working hard to balance the mage archtype. We should have patience and wait for the end results.

Here here to mages being more tanky. last time i killed rhysus he went down in 3 swings....not he's been around as long as me (day 1) I know i do a decent amound of damage but damn Mages need -something-.

Murphy,

A mage inside a full casted demesne is powerful, but outside he is very vulnerable. The latest changes to Mage were very nice and gave them incredible offensive afflictions, but they still lack behind in damage and defensive potentials. I'm a Merian with level 2 fire weakness and I still take only around 1000 damage from a Mugwump staff with 4500 health, they should really do more than that.

On the other hand, it seems now that Phantom is absurd. Back when it gave an affliction message, it was fine, and when it did psychic damage, and chances to entangle, that's good. But why are its afflictions hidden nowaday? Darkmoon and Ancestral curse do roughly the same thing but costs 8 powers, and no damage or entanglement. Fuse + demesne effects + phantom + runes + illusion, are very nice together already, there's no need to make phantom's afflictions masked.

He was kinda agreeing with you there, Terenas. *g*