Just because someone is a Champion does not give them automatic status for unlimited PK against anyone who harms their guild members. Indeed, Champions (to do their job) should be more careful in regards to the Avenger than anyone else. Basically, a Champion can switch places with a guildmember in trouble and thus rescue that person (i.e., he or she is now safe). If the person who was attacking suddenly attacks the Champion, then obviously the Champion can't possibly be on their suspect list and may therefore kill said person. Again, just because someone attacks a guildmember does not give the Champion the right to kill the transgressor. Champions have the power to rescue guildmembers, not to be mini-avengers themselves. A pacified Champion obviously won't be a very effective Champion, so it behooves them to never get involved in a situation where they could get vegneanced called on them.

If there are bugs to the Avenger, they should be reported directly to Roark as has been stated several times. If we don't hear about alleged bugs, obviously we can't investigate. Spuriously claiming that the Avenger is so bugged that you can get vengeanced called upon you just by "looking at someone" is a pretty sleazy way of bashing the Avenger system. Not only does it insult the coders but it tells us nothing specific on what may be considered a bug.

Anyway, pacifism is an excellent side effect to curb PK. Those who are aggressive and like to PK do not like to be pacified and will probably now go out of their way not to have the Avenger called upon them. In my eyes, this means the Avenger system is working more like we initially had envisioned it. Frankly, Rafael, your complaints have absolutely convinced me we did the right thing. Aggressive actions may well be a part of this game, but so too are grave consequences for PKing on the prime.

Lusternia was never meant to have an open PK system and frankly what we've seen has gone far beyond the bounds of what we want. I hope these updates will reign in the rampant violence we've been seeing.

I'm not going to say I'm an Angel when it comes to picking who I can and cannot kill, but with the amount of bugs in the Avenger system at this time you're putting a grave trust into the hands of people who don't care one way or the other what happens when they call down Avenger.

While the current one I'm passifaction I'm under is justified, most of the others I could be under are not and this is going to make my playing time hell. And for what? Bugs? Sure, they'll be fixed in the future, but I don't care about the future. I care about now, and now is being trashed. It'd be a fine, fine idea to give people the power that issues did to seriously repeat offenders in other realms, but only when the bugs are gone.

Also, on the note that saying the coding was bad, no, it's a mistake. But I'm just trying to generalize just how easy it is for someone to give you suspect on them, I didn't mean it as bad say you said.

Further, on the note that Champions should just RESCUE and be done with it, versus getting passified. This is from HELP GUILDCHAMPS

"The best of the best, it is not uncommon to have enemies of the guild run in fear when their Champion enters the scene."

Why? Because we'll sit there and stare at them while the calmly walk away, unscathed after harming a Guildmate of said muscle-head who just changed spots?

And a whole poo-load of people are being killed now, when they don't want to be/shouldn't be/aren't ready to be (etc). So one group had to lose out in the timing of this. Yes Avenger might have some bugs (I've never used it) but be a little patient.

Perhaps don't pacify them, create a new condition that allows them to hit mobs but not Players. You did it well enough with Innocence. Totally nerfing someone for a period based on their amount of PK (be it roleplay based or not) is a little harsh, especially when Avenger isn't all there yet.

Ah, I've had to yet add another set of smilies just to help me explain what happens to the Administration with trying to balance PK, the Avenger and player satisfaction!

Explosive gas?

Quidgyboo, that was supposed to be our collective head exploding. Gas, indeed!!

You are

Just make me a God with the ability to delete forum posts and shrub people..

Problem solved

Why not simply allow people who wish to retain Grace or Innocence do so, and let the rest of us kill and be killed as our Roleplay dictates?

That's called having PK flags, where players turn on/off their acceptance to PK. This generally doesn't work and creates a very artificial RP atmosphere with regards to conflict.

In any event, those of you who want to kill and be killed can do so to your heart's content anywhere except on the prime material plane.

I feel like we are moving in this direction regardless.

I wouldn't be upset about it if group combat actually worked. Lets say Rafael and Rhysus jump Kaervas and myself, I have pk careful on and I wouldn't lose suspect on Rafael and Rhysus till after they kill Kaervas, that just annoys me to no end.

I agree, it seems like this pacifism thing, while it might address the concerns of pk frequency, makes the whole system (avenger and what not) seem much less realistic, perhaps more so than the idea of grace.

Yep i agree. Group combat and defedning an ally needs to be somehow coded in? perhaps something to do with allies list?

We had this kind of smackdown coming....reset my vengence list I'll never kill another on there again!

Also pacifism should last as long until someone (an enemy) attacks you or kills you. Self defence should always be an option.

Surely its within good RP if someone were to kill someone's brother wife ally etc, that you could go and kill them fair enough no worries mate cause it fits in to do so.

With this whole pacifism avenger thing its got the possibility to detract from RP

OK, I guess I'm just not smart enough to understand...If we didn't want so much PK on the prime material plane, why did we put all the villages, where we compete constantly and bloodshed is really unavoidable, on the prime material plane?

As it is, I've been on raids to the city of Celest twice (that I can recall, I might be wrong), once with Visaeris to "kill" Meleris and once more recently. I don't consider this an unreasonable amount. Basically the rest of my combat has been in villages that are being raided, counter raided, influenced, etc.

My victims list might not be as long as some other Magnagorans, but it is long enough that there are only about 4 Celestians I can count on being there that I can attack. Both times I have been avengered, it was despite having PK careful ON. Although one person has a legit vengeance on me now, I turned it off for that one, then immediately back on.

I guess my point is, I don't feel like I'm intentionally PK'ing too much. I decided to play Olan as uncaring about his life if he's helping the city, so he goes on any raids that occur. I think most of the raids are at the rate dictated by the amount of political and economic tension and competition. I spent hours and hours in a row PK'ing and influencing and chanting when 4 villages went up at once, or when one heavily contested village went up 24 hours later.

Please don't tell me it is people like me who are in this 'too much PK'ing' boat? If it is, I don't know what it is we're expected to do. I've seen people constantly divert and influence mobs from each other...and its even more boring then repeatedly influencing the same people over and over for days on end.

Now, I can just see the brilliant tactics...everyone save your vengeances on Valek and Daevos until the first of the month, and if villages revolt, then use them. Haha!

We already had to stand there and watch our friends get killed because group combat doesn't function the way one might expect. Now, if we attack anyway or in the case of these bugs where people get vengeance on you for...well, it isn't clear what for...you not only get to die, twice (and lose 30 power, for those of us with lichdom, the 10 from the first casting, the 10 we probably have when we get killed and lich, and the 10 to recast lichdom when we come to life) AND we can't attack anything at all for a while. Cool! At least I can log off and go get some coffee and know that my 'penalty box' time is still counting

I think this is an original and workable solution and I hope it brings pk back into the realms of 'an extreme action', like it should be. Whoever's doing so much work to keep all of us happy... kudos!

Whatever bugs there may be, I think the changes are doing exactly what they're intended to do, discourage the fighters to fight as much on Prime...even the few bugs people talk about add to that, so they're not even a bad thing. I do single and group battle plenty of times, never had any problems with the Avenger, if I don't feel like getting thumped by Avechna, I turn pk careful on, if I don't care, I just turn it off again. If one of my citymates is getting beaten by someone that has me on his/her suspect list, I think, is this dude worth getting killed by Avechna for? If yes, I smush, if no, I tell him I had a lag spike.

Last week, i must have spent ten or fifteen minutes on the planes. I'm not interested by pk, i don't do it without a really good reason and couldn't do it anyway for the sake of the life of my character.

Why don't i go kill people when they look at me funny. Of course, for each one of us, there are several reasons like fear of the consequences, fear of the cops, fear of screwing one's life. But i would say, that it would not bode well if those negative feelings were all that would hinder oneself to do the worst. Truely, there are positive feelings and conditions that more effectively stops up from doing this.

The efforts to turn death and pk into a science of precision are exactly what gives room for complaints when something doesn't fall into the soon to be infamous equation of pain and vengeance.

Despite, your good intentions, you're both, staff and pkillers, digging your own grave until the day all that would be felt as a solution would be the lobotomy. But then, that's one cuckoo's nest that i will never accept to fly over.

It's just a game, i know. But we all spend time in it, and if in the end we haven't learnt anything worthy about ourselves and others, then it would just be a waste of time.

I have no idea what the first part was all about, but I agree with that .

One problem I have found with this new system, that may have been overlooked, is Raise dead. A person comes back to life at the nexus before someone is able to use raise dead on them. However if they are a lich, raise dead works fine, as there a longer time for the body to sit there.