To Thorgal : I don't think anyone will understand it ever but i just wanted to use equation of pain and vengeance and i couldn't get this picture of jack nicholson out of my mind.

The pacifism seems a little to much, when the realms supposed to be driven by the conflict over villages. The amount of PK on prime doesn't seem high for the general populace, infact, most of what I see is from specific groups from Celest and magnagora killing one another. The only time I've seen alot of people dying is during influencing, and after one or two skrimishes that seems to die out. And again, it does seem to be mostly people from certain groups... I thought Avenger was supposed to make it impossible to repeat kill/attack one person, so that there'd be no issue with PK... Which, in itself, probably lessens PK, because only if a victim attacks me, is it safe to kill em again. So for there to be alot of fighting, both sides have to agree by attacking each other.... Which seems fine to me.

No, there's been a lot of people, even newbies, that're continuously getting killed without ever participating willingly in battles, and quitting over it, people didn't even feel safe in their own city, most likely cause they weren't...

I do see a lot of bloodthirsty newbies killing other newbies. I remember from my brief time at Achaea that pretty much all the guilds there had bans on PK until you graduated. I think that's a bad idea however, because you're held back from learning one of the fundamental skills of this game.
However, whenever non-novice players die on prime, it's pretty much always on raids, isn't it? And, of course, summoning in vengance, which is a pretty crappy tactic, I think.
Now if we had more planes, and larger planes and something on the planes except bashing-material, we might see some action up there. But Astral's too tough for me right now, so I stay prime. But I still want to be able to PK.

Wow, I never knew that!

Well, I was kinda close...my bad . Though I did manage to atleast make you smile/laugh/smirk or something a little less stressful, compared to dealing with us whinging 24/7.

Alright, here it is, nearly 10 hours since Avenger killed me and I'm still passified. Fine, I can't get you to see turning off passify until the bugs are fixed, I can't get you to see giving mortals the ability to passify one another is bad, so can't the passify time -atleast- be an hour or two?

Edit:
This is going to screw around unity amongst Citizens, aswell. I can save a Guildmate temporarily by putting them where I'll be, but if a Citizen is under attack, mind I'll never take off pk careful with this bull in, they can forget it. The few non-buggy vengeances on my list are from people who I killed for attacking Citizens, all but one was directly defending the Citizen. Can they expect this protection for them now? Hell no.

You can get avengered if the person got a vengeance credit and then attacked you once, thereby removing you from the suspect list.

This is why I left Achaea. Dumb rules that kill roleplay and that stops all kind of combat/wars. Now you can't really fight on prime anymore, because if you do, some looser will use his vengeance and get you pacified.

For those who complain about getting suspected or avengered for no reason, keep an eye out on what Avechna says to you when it happens. If he accuses you of "conspiring" then the game thinks you were part of a team that attacked someone. Team check code is complicated, but it has never been broken in testing. If it accuses you oof teaming and you have done an aggressive action against the person in the recent past then that's probably why. This could include less obvious things, like leaving the person on your enemy list and he wondered into your demesne. (Solution: don't enemy anyone you do not wish to do harm.)

Next thing, and I cannot stress this enough, turn on PK carefulness!! This will prevent you from ever getting "avengered".

Finally, for champions, follow this scenario. You rescue a newbie in your guild. The person attacking him has you as a suspect. If he does not fight back and flees then the newbie was indeed rescued. If he decides to put up a fight, since he strikes at you then he will no longer be a suspect and you can kick his ass. (And having PK carefulness on will prevent you from ever making a mistake and getting yourself "avengered".) Thus there is no restriction on a champion's ability to rescue novices. Either he turns tail and runs in fear or you can safely fight him with no repercussions.

Rescue == Rescue;
Rescue != Killfest; // (That's a "not equals" for you non-programmers out there...)

I understand why Estarra and Roark would feel that putting pacifism into place would be a good way to lessen the amount of unnecessary PK taking place in the realm. But pacifism is such an utterly frustrating state to be in that I think if I were to be pacified I'd just log off for the day. I've never much cared for the Avenger system...I mean, it's great in that the Divine don't need to spend as much time doing issues so they can concentrate on making Mages a competent archetype, but now it's doing the same thing to people that the constant PK was, that is, making them question whether it's even worth it at all.

Eventually, when the Avenger system gets completely figured out and we can all come to a consensus on when it's working properly and fairly across the board (I don't know if there's anyone who has had extensive experience with it that would say it currently is), then using pacifism in some state as a punishment could be viable. But for one, the time shouldn't be nearly as long as it seems to be, and more reasons need to be put in place to be on the Planes at all, that don't necessarily involve raiding back and forth. Otherwise, the balance is going to get upset in the opposite direction as it is now, and people will just find PK as frustrating as it is in Achaea.

Edit: Just a quick question to Roark's above posted scenario. Are you basically saying that the Champion should switch places with the person, then just SIT there and hope they get attacked first? Isn't that placing an unnecessary strategical hindrance on the Champion, or anyone for that matter in the same type of situation?

Second that saraxus.....For sure.

EDIT: Second that Rhysus too.....I mean really. There a couple that can avenger me (including one who has 3 on me, and I never attacked him once!! BUG) I'd log off for the day too and go play achaea. see who I can get with choke whoring.

I am guessing that the cases of being on PK status and thinking you ought not be is due to user confusion. Nonetheless, I have been wrong before! So please send me (in-game) a list of people you believe ought not have PK status against you and I will look into the agression logs to see if you indeed never touched the person.

I don't think the point is that people are getting Suspect status and whatnot just completely out of the blue. It's the way they are getting it and the fairness of their getting it for these things. I have about 10 people on my list (Or that are no longer there due to them having already used the Avenger on me) whom I slew by standing inside of my city, and staffpointing outside of the city, and hitting them as they stood with a huge group of people getting ready to raid. I don't consider any of them valid reasons to have me on their Suspect list. The same is true for people raiding villages then running away. If I catch up to them and kill them, they get suspect/vengeance on me. Stupid. Or if someone in my city is being attacked, and I teleport over and kill the person attacking them. PK status. Stupid.

Maybe it's just me. But I don't feel the Avenger deals well with a wide range of situations, and until it does, the punishment dealt should not be so harsh.

Unless you turn on PK carefulness, in which case you have nothing to worry about.

This is no different than it was since day one.

Before change: wait for the first hit to avoid getting avengered.
After change: wait for the first hit to avoid getting avengered.

yeah but difference is now.....it hurts a lot more.

So before the change we weighed up getting avengered (low hurting) compared to crime (killing). THe old way was avenger = or < killing

Now its a lot more painful, avenger > killing so in highsight we might not have killed who we did

really, combat is gonna be on prime.... because thats where the cities, communes, villages, all are...

As for the pacifism, it currently seems to just make people very miserable.
Maybe if you only became pacified, if hit by an avenger for the 10th time in a year? And then have it for a 24 hour period. That would discourage anyone from mass-pking but still let the conflict keep going safely. Or have a random chance of getting pacified after the 5th time being avengered in a year.
Maybe instead of random chance of pacification, have stages. If someone gets hit by avenger for the fith time in one IC year (and not the actual year. If hit by the avenger for a fifth time in the whole year prior to that hit.) have them pacified for 12 hours. If they get hit again, for a 6th time in a year, anouther 12 hour pacification AND lose the ability to speak common for however much time they have left pacified. Have the avenger 'Take your memories, to restore the ones you've wronged'. Might be more fun if the whole punishment from avenger ran along those lines. First overkill, say, 3 times avengered in one year, and you suddenly can't convery emotion well (no custom emote, slightly slurred speech). for five times avengered in one year, lose the ability to speak common. for seven, no languages at all - Same as being muted. All for a relevant period of time, of course. And say, if the person gets to being avengered 10 times in a year, they lose any emotions, which could act like pacification in a way: 'You cannot summon the anger to lash out at whoever' or 'You can't summon the good will to heal soandso' and even, 'You begin to work, but simply stare at the tools of your trade, devoid of the will to use them'.

And all that could be explained as the Avenger taking part of your memory and self, to repay the debts you owed.

I think that the city xp/conglutination changes were a brilliant way to give people a safe spot and reduce the constant PK. Thank you!

I can see where the Avenger pacifism is going, and I think it will work well, given a few tweaks to the Avenger.

Would it be possible for the gods to give us some idea of what tweaks you have planned for the Avenger in the future?

Here are some of the tweaks that I remember being suggested. Most are from this thread:
http://lusternia.ire-community.com/index.php?showtopic=136

I think we understand that some of this may be complicated to implement and will take time to be put in, but it would be really helpful to know which, if any, were being taken into consideration (as these don't necessarily qualify as bugs). Summary:

1) Villages -- Make uninfluenced villages avenger-free (like non-prime planes). These are battlefields.

2) Attacks -- Restrict the definition of an "aggressive action" to one that: drains health/mana/ego, decreases a stat (enfeeble), gives an affliction (including sleep, stun, etc.), causes loss of eq/balance, or moves the victim against their will. With this definition, ordering an ent aggressive without actually attacking won't give suspect/vengeance. Neither will bouncing off someone's shield or a attempting a summon but failing.

2) Defending Allies -- Allow someone to attack the attacker of a guild/city/ordermate without accruing additional Suspect/Vengeance. Ideally, include personal allies also. (http://lusternia.ire-community.com/index.p...findpost&p=2373)

3) Champions -- When a guildmate is rescued, transfer suspect of the attacker and any attack timers from the victim to the Champion. Also, let Champions rescue while pacified, even if they can't attack.

4) Raiding -- For X minutes after leaving enemy territory, a raider remains unprotected by the Avenger.

5) City vs. City quests -- It seems like these quests were designed to cause conflict. It would help if suspect/vengeance did not apply here. Example: Rexali kills me for killing in the Sea of Despair.. One alternative is to consider the Sea of Despair to be "enemy territory" for enemies of Magnagoran (and the Inner Sea for enemies of Celest).

On a side note, I agree that the pacifism timers should be reduced to no more than about half an hour (then increase it if that proves to be too short).

Edit: typos

That still doesn't list the biggest reason for pking - insults. Unfortunately I don't see any way to implement an anti-insult clause into the Avenger system.