I'm a little curious about something, and I'm the first to admit that I could have overlooked something rather obvious... but where does the emphasis on 'survival' at any and all costs come from?

I've noticed a real trend in a lot of people who seem to assume that Serenwilde has only been concerned with our survival, and we'll do anything to make ourselves safe. The alliances with the cities is a good example of this. I can certainly understand that some people want to rp having had a difficult life, so they are personally in that mindset... but why do we go that way as a group?

From all I've read, Serenwilde was the only place to escape the wars unscathed, and though I'm sure it would have been difficult at times, I can't see where it would have become so bad we dropped to an instinctive level. I remember that Ellindel inspired serenwilde to expand the forests across the basin (and over the cities... mwahaha), don't we still have that goal at heart?

Even though it says serenwilde withdrew into *itself* to avoid civilization, I don't think that meant we abandoned our identity to start scavenging resources at the brink of destruction. I know Auseklis pushes us to focus on ourselves rather than trying to speak for all nature, which is totally a good idea... but that doesn't mean we are going to panic when some minor benefit doesn't come our way.

Can anyone point out to me where I'm going wrong, whether you're in the commune ic or not?

Read the histories. Serenwilde withdrew into the forest to protect themselves, and they were GOING to take even further action before the Taint was stopped - they would have phased out of reality like Ackleberry did.

The reason we're so concerned with the survival is because we hold our Greater Spirits dear to us, and we would hate for them to become tainted like Raven and Night.

But somehow 'survival at all costs' seems to have been manipulated around into 'dealing with the tainted/cities in general, to survive'... it seems to me that 'at all costs' referred to Serenwilde making sacrifices, not neccessarily resorting to dealing with cities and the Tainted.

That's what I think Elryn meant, anyway. Maybe. It's certainly something i've noticed. Though people weren't even trying to play it off as Serenwilde's historical RP when I saw it being done, so... whatever.

Yeah, with the whole "bargaining with cities if it suits us..." I don't like it. I'm pretty sure Auseklis has made it clear he doesn't like it either, a few times.

IC, I've been arguing that, say, that pact with Magnagora was great, since they basically ripped them out of a village for almost no cost (5% of comms and ethereal passage, which we couldn't prevent anyway, in exchange for 95% of comms and 100% of power from Dairuchi), but OOC, I really think Serenwilde should've stayed away from it. Best to keep things edgy, quite apart from Divine suggestions and historical thingsies.

Everyone knows that the taint still remains because of Magnagora, why doesn't Serenwilde fight Magnagora to destroy the taint from curropting more of their great spirits?

As the Former Emperor of Mag, I'll comment on the pact, we would say we "sold" Dairuchi, for the simple reason that it put Serenwilde deeper in our pocket, and further from Celest.

The reason it was only 5% is that Mag didn't need the commodities from Dairuchi, we had every other village and gave Serenwilde Estelbar by keeping Celest from influencing there.

Mag wants to destroy Celest, it doesn't want Celest suddenly getting help from Serenwilde because they're pissed at Magnagora, so we make them happy and bring them deeper into our pockets.

Anyway, back to the real world.

Mike

That's the perfect scenario argument to apply it to.

If Serenwilde declares open war on Magnagora, they're keeping the forest safe, but sacrificing the lives of their soldiers. Survival of the forest, at the cost of lives.

BUT if Serenwilde does a deal with Magnagora to keep the forest safe, they're sacrificing their freedom/ethos/credibility. The forest survives, at the cost of some freedoms.

In both cases the forest is 'safe', yet in different ways. What type of 'costs' are implied, and what type of survival? (I hope this doesn't sound like i'm attacking Serenwilde's leadership. I could understand the arguments for both cases, and i'm more interested than anything else really.)

You're 100% right, of course, and it seems to have gone down pretty well (although Serenwilde is still sort of in snugglebunny mode, I reckon we'll get out of that in a while), but that's not how my Moondancer perceives it. Just to clarify.
EDIT: Also, Sidharta, I can see your point, but keep in mind that it's not as much of a moral sacrifice as you might think, seeing as the taint actually CAN'T corrupt Mother Moon and Brother Hart right now, lacking Kethuru's presence and all. As I think it was Auseklis said, where taint before was like a grenade on your lawn, now it's more like dog mess. More offensive than lethal.(Paraphrased, yes. )

Oh, you can kill someone with dog mess... Magnagora would still find something nasty to do to the Serenwilde if they ever came to exercise dominion over it. It might not be as -final- as the original Kethuru-style Taint, but it would be nasty - just like dog mess on your lawn, from a particularly vicious dog!

Ok, maybe I should have clarified. Of course we are going to act to protect ourselves, thats not what I was talking about.

Its more the attitude that we are in such a dangerous position that we simply have no choice but to accept short-term benefits at the cost of our beliefs/ideals/whatever just to survive. There's no mention of Serenwilde in the history descending to that state.

Because we were ready to take the only drastic action we could think of, doesn't mean that mentality continued after the threat had passed. We withdrew because we were disgusted with civilization... the 'bad' taint had been dealt with and our Spirits were relatively safe.

And yes, Sidharta, thats what I meant.

The whole issue has mainly to due with balance. While Serenwilde would -like- to be able to say no to everything the cities throw our way, the reality is that we are just as weak as Celest, and if Magnagora wanted, they could probably chase away every last one of our players to the other muds by constantly killing us.

Magnagora is simply too powerful not to deal with, and Serenwilde aren't fools (we're not supposed to be, anyway).

To use an example I often use In-character, sometimes, when a pack of Wolves make a kill, a bear will get wind of it and come along. Now, the pack of Wolves could probably kill the bear if they wanted to, but the bear would likely kill or greviously wound a good deal of them in the process. As a predator, if you can't hunt at 100% efficiency, you die. So, the Wolves cut their losses, and let the bear take some of their kill. The bear knows he's pushing his luck though, and doesn't take it all, and eventually leaves the rest to the Wolves.

Serenwilde and Magnagora are like the bear and the wolf in this situation. Serenwilde would -like- not to share anything, but they would be walking out in a whole lot worse situation if they fought it. Sometimes, it is better to conceed minor defeats for more long term gain.

Also, it makes for some interesting political dealings, which is fun times for all.

I just realised I didn't answer all of your question, sorry.

The Survivalist attitude is one that I always imagined Serenwilde to have. I was sick of the crappy forestal organisations from the other games, and when I first read about the Serenwilde I thought "Finally, a Commune with balls."

Unfortunately right from the start we had people come along with the snuggly, cutsey, hippy ideals, and we've been fighting that all along *twitch*

I always thought Serenwilde -could- be like that, at certain times. I envisioned them almost like a remote farming community in our world, gruff and serious when it needs to be, but with some good old wholesome community fun in times they can afford it.

But in terms of playability, we can't afford to be our roleplay ideal. Not entirely. We try as best we can, but we simply don't have the might to match our ambitions.

And I don't think that will ever change. Magnagora will always be number 1, simply because of the appeal of Evil, and the established lead they have.

Yes, I can see why we might decide to go against our rp because the balance of power is a bit skewed at the moment.

Personally, I've -never- seen Serenwilde as internally brutal and harsh. I've always thought our biggest attribute should be our pride and our scorn for the cities. We are set up as this mystical, spiritual place that thinks itself far better than anyone else, but we're stuck in what I would call a 'forestal' mindset in which we need to emulate nature, particularly its harshness. We -aren't- nature, we just get along with it.

Maybe its a bad analogy, but I think of Lothlorien from LOTR to base my understanding... inside its very magical and serene, but outsiders aren't welcome or liked at -all-.

I agree about snuggly and cutesy, by the way.

Coming from Celest, and Imperian, that mentality really bothers me.

Im personally waiting for Mangagora to say to Serenwilde, after Celest has been decimated (which theyre doing a pretty good job at at the moment, but I think theres a chance it might change soon), Either let us taint your forest or we will destroy you. At that point Serenwilde will have two choices, fight back and be destroyed, because the only other thing which stood against the tainting (of the forest by collary) is Celest, or become just like Glomdoring.

That's why I phrased it that way.

I think it is heading that way, which should be fun . Serenwilde can only bend so much before it either breaks or snaps back in Mag's face.

Even if a serenwilder has been conditionned to hate the cities, oocly the players should admit that the cities aren't that bad, and Magnagora is more than a city since it has a symbiotic relation with the taint, making it a whole and alien ecosystem.

Now, i agree that there is a lack of natural predators for Serenwilde, but i guess they'll eventually pop up as time goes on.

The forestals folks are supposed to be the weakest entity since they should attract the less players and most of these players will not be interested by pk anyway, that's why in all IRE game, they are given at least one asset , unique and vital that could not be ignored, in order to keep in check the other organizations.

But that would be kinda pointless to attack Serenwilde, just so you(serenwilde) people could feel good in your survalist Rp, since we(the cities) would have no benefit from it.

The only thing reasonnable would be to reduce your number of villages to one or zero. I'll try to work on it

Whoooah, hold it right there. Forestals, LESS players? Far too many Aragorn/Legolas wannabes for that. Just look at Sentinels, and that wasn't -just- for concoctions. If it was really that they didn't want to PK and the rest of it, odds are they'd've been more likely to join Druids or Sylvans. In my experience, forestal organisations like that were MORE likely to attract players than cities.