Okay, we all know Magnagora is very mighty, and they deserve it. They haven't got it through unbalanced skillsets, they haven't got it through cheating, they've simply got it because they have the most organised, most unified, highest concentration of good combat and political players (by far).

However, when is enough enough in terms of flexing their might over the rest of the basin? Seriously, if Celest and Serenwilde and all the rogues joined forces, they still could not overpower Magnagora.

And I'm definately not suggesting taking their might away, they earned it, and I respect that.

In Aetolia, during the big Ashtan war, we got accused of "Trying to ruin the playability of Aetolia", simply because we were supressing enemy Militia very effectively to the point where they just died over and over if they logged in (when we were all in, anyway). Magnagora could easily do that and much more, and as it is they harass anyone who they wish.

When the next village conflict comes up, its easy to see Magnagora will come out on top. They also usually come out on top against celest, as you can see by their hubris in "Hey, lets go to Celestia, and kill all the Celest people when they try and stop us", and only leave when they get bored of killing.

But, where is the line drawn with harassing groups of players. I don't mean in the sense of purposefully setting out to make the game unenjoyable for others, as that is clearly wrong, I mean, when do we require some sort of consideration and responsibility for those with the might to do as they wish?

Take for example Terentia's order. Its not right to ask a divine to change their purpose, simply because its anti-you. However, its also not right to just avert IC consequences of things simply because of OOC concerns. But, as it has been made obvious, a divine is completely at the mercy of a bunch of mortals, simply because of how powerful those mortals are.

And I don't think that realistically, IC, terentia should be asked to change her ideals. But still, its terrible for the customers, and the general enjoyment of everyone, if those who seek to follow her, even peacefully, are ruthlessly hunted and persecuted. There has to be a way to end it, though I dont neccisarily mean drop it. What I am asking for, is for the players of the Magnagorans to at least be open to other options, even if they make them more difficult.

I agree. Dunno too much on the Terentia topic, but if she was being pressured into doing something by Magnagora, she should so some of her Godly might! Show them whos boss.

Okay re-reading my post I'm not even entirely clear on my own point, so I'll reiterate:

-Magnagora are mighty, but rightly so.
-There are IC consequences to all actions, including being in Terentia's order
-Noone can touch Magnagora, and it makes just about any non-magnagoran unhappy in their playtime
-I believe its best if some middle-ground it met IC
-I want to know if the Magnagoran players are on the same level, so that we're not all just frustrating each other.

And yes, I'm perfectly aware that I can just leave and have the consequences stop, but I'd prefer to try and help the situation become workable so that more players can enjoy a particular roleplay niche if they wish.

Magnagora's not THAT far above us. All it takes is a little underhanded deviance to make them rethink what they're doing.

Now, if only the Celestians would give up the moral high ground just long enough for me to cause trouble.

Magnagora is pretty much the superpower at the moment, and I for one am happy about that. Coming from Mhaldor, its a nice change to see heh.

on that note however, Celest and Serenwilde do have some decent fights, just not enough. I can name off the top of my head like 5 or 6 ur'guard who are pretty good fighters, and I come off pretty close to even with all of them.

You're right about the concentration, I mean i know of maybe 3 serenwilde fighters who are pretty good and I've heard of, and maybe 4 or 5 from celest off the top of my head.

Also Group combat is well organised, and frequent enough that those of us who raid in groups including the newer ones can see pretty well though the spam at people to kill.

You'll probably notice Terentia isn't doing a lot about trying to stop this harassment/killing of her order members. Frankly, her ideals call for her followers to be militaristic. In other words, she expects them to be able to protect themselves. If they can't stand up for what they think is right, sucks for them. She's not a peaceful, neutral Goddess who sits by and lets people pick on her, but as of now this hasn't gotten to the point where it can be easily justified for her to step in and start being slightly more "helpful" without just plain interferring.

As a person, yeah, I know it's hard. Magnagora is really powerful right now and Celest is going to have to get a little more organized if they want to turn the tables. There's not a lot that can be done about it. I'd have to agree with Murphy; for anyone coming from Achaea to Lusternia and consequentially from a Mhaldorian to a Magnagoran, this is a nice change. For the people who play "good" characters in other IRE games, it's difficult. Sadly, people usually stay to one character type, so the "good" people who're used to effortlessly winning are feeling a bit down. But hey. Now you know how Mhaldor feels. =P

Heh Terentia I can see a bit of Mhaldor right there, basically learn to fight and dont be weak, or die.

However, Killing your order members will entertain me for a while, got marcalo earlier he didn't fight back or run, just sat there and sipped, AFK maybe?

I like this Magnagora dominating thing, although I chose it initially cause I like the challenge of playing a darker role, seems we are winning which makes it a totally different experience, which keeps me here

I think a major thing about magnagora, is that if a leader says jump, everyone jumps. At a moments notice, a sizable raid group can be called up, with none of this "I just need to" or "But you can't tell me exactly what to do" crap I think some people spout. A side effect of a city being 'good' is that the citizens tend to demand a right to do as they please, with only a small portion willing to do exactly as ordered, when ordered. This didn't cause problems on other IRE games, because Mhaldor had to start up with other places established, Bloodloch wouldn't expand out, etc. Evil's always been the minority or at a disadvantage on other IRE games. People who play evil characters have ended up better fighters. Now, the 'evil' side is on equal footing, and they're crushing any and all opposition.

Thats a brilliant point you make there Gol.

After our earlier successes, most of the city actually WANTS to go fight and defend in a raid. We ban novices from attending (unlike others *cough*) and often I get freshly promoted-out-of-noviehood people asking to come along. There is a culture of fighting and war, all Daevos needs to do is announce a fight, and ther are at least 5 - 10 people each time that are there in a second.

I both IC and OOC get upset at missing raids, to the point where i'll have to go spar in arena. No-one even questions the authority leading the raid.

The key element is willingness, if you got a dictator into celest he'd have no effect cause it seems like people just aren't keen to go on raids. I can understand why, but you should still try to defend even if you get trounced, there is only one way to get better.

Perhaps novices should be brought up in celest to fight, and "If you're not going to fight for the light then go join serenwilde" Celest needs to get a little bit badass in its furthering the light. Morals and principles of the light should take a backseat to the lights goals. Honour of course should always be upheld.

It seems that all the PK happy end up going to the evil city (probably because you have no moral restrictions about who to kill and who not to kill). Is just about restrictions on RP, if you see an "evil" person killing another evil person, you'll think "he's purging the weak or he's mad". If a Paladin kills an innocent, everybody goes to his throat.
I just need a neutral place to live!

Maybe someone could inconvenience Magnagora like Furloch did, but on a higher level. That caused some commotion.

And its already been fixed.

That doesn't mean he'll stop dying, however.

The reason I have no problems with Magnagora being all mighty and such is that the city has a very decent leadership, which is a very pleasent change to Imperian.

Main difference between Mag and Celest is leadership. Magnagora has people who are great organizers and have the ability to unify the population ( by strongarming them if necessary) into a course of action.

Celest five years on is still sorting out its government structure and the powerplay internal political games are still going on. There is a clear feeling that the city is divided into the great unwashed masses and the ruling elite who sit in power and spout edicts but since they ignore the will of the masses nothing gets done since the majority of the population just ignores a government who is clearly paralyzed to the point of non-action. A gov that is internaly divided will invariably be incapable of unifing the population in any single direction.

I was playing my celest char at the time of the last Celestian raid (culling ) and some people really did do their city duty and even though they were pretty ratty, no vials, hell most had no reflexes of any sort they went out and in three seperate waves got annihilated. Any CF's for that?........nope....... Now if thats not a complete disconnect with the population and f***ing neon sign for an uncarrying leadership I dunno what is.

Magnagora deserves its place by being the antagonist and by being the way they are they are actually HELPING the other cities to reform quicker. I know in the short run it just drains the uncommited players who dont enjoy being on the short end of the stick all the time but ultimatly it will piss off enough people in Celest to actually band together and get the city working. Hate is a poweful binder of unlike minds. I think thats the only way Celest is going to get its act together and become a challenge to Magnagora.

Its sad to say but I think Celest NEEDS to get repeatedly ground down to create a core group of very pissed off tough players that will do what is necessary to see the city prosper.

So in that vein my Celest char says to Magnagora......Thank you Sir may I have another.....

I had the hope that after Lacostian leaving us, and we having no villages, we would wake up.
It was proven false hope.

OOC'ly I'm getting tired of Celest basicly being a big punching bag, and I'm probably not alone, I want some excitement here. I play the game for a lot of reasons but one of them is PK, and when people basicly go down in 10 seconds because they don't have any levels or just can't cure at all, it takes most of the fun out of PK'ing. And Celest, you should jump me more often, it's fun. I'm also sick of raiding Celestia, I mean come on it's just like basing now-a-days. Personally, I'd like to see you get better. Simply because I'm starting to get bored. Idle hand are the devil's playground after all.

Solution: I have no idea. Magnagora, after all, did earn it's status so the Divine can't just step in without disgruntling nearly everyone. Think the only truely viable solution would be to make Celest more attractive to people who want to get a high level and get good at fighting. How you do that is anyone's guess though. Hopefully, in time, the concentration of fighters will even out between the three cities.

IC'ly I didn't wite this and none of it holds true, and I will continue to kick Celest while it's down because, RP wise, it's absolutly required, I am trying to completely wipe you off the face of Lusternia after all.

I dunno about that. Celest's gotten its act together in a big way after the villages were lost. I'm seeing a heck of a lot less whining on the city wave and the guild wave (not that the Aquamancers were particularly vocal before, I'll agree with you that they don't seem so important in Celest.) Lacostian leaving just made them MORE whiny, although I think having Erion & Co. as an extra random scapegoat helped them out a bit, but now they're in such dire straits they've actually started to pick themselves up and dusting themselves off. I'm even seeing Magnagorans actually LOSE in raids once or twice

In the opening year of open beta, Magnagora's best vs. Celest's best was actually an even fight. Not anymore. However, I think the only way anything will be 'fixed' is if Celest grovels before Magnagora, and tithes or some such, or Seren+Celest+Hallifax+Gaudigauch go against it, which is highly, highly unlikely.

Celest has nobody to blame but themselves. Magnagora is good, and Celest also has that potential. They're just not using it.

I can see Gaudiguch and Celest ganging up on Magnagora, possibly. They're both anti-taint, after all.