Yeah, a lot of philosophy sort of goes to Nil in Lusternia. Especially atheism.

I was joking. Roark == a god. If Roark is an atheist, he can't believe in himself...

...yeah, I kinda got that part. Actually, a constable Dorfl kinda character would be very interesting!

I love the Term Christian light

because everything else is just so fattening.

I'm overall Jewish by belief, but I have strange ideas-- hence, other. By strange ideas I mean that I believe in a Hell (not the standard concept, but I'll touch on that in a minute), I believe in a "Devil" (again, not the standard concept), and I'm a Quabbalist.

Now we get to the wierd stuff. In Judaic thought, to be "evil" is to be against G-d. Anything that is against G-d or Its wants and needs is evil.... and humans are given free choice. However, since G-d is in everything that exists, and every thing that exists is a part of G-d, there really wouldn't -normally- be something for humans to choose between... no other concept. Ergo, God empowered one of Its emanations (Sephira) to represent this. This "antithesis" has to seem to be against G-d, because that's its job. In reality, it is just as G-d loving and fearing as any other of the Machina (angels, literally: machines).

Anyway, there's my two religious sovereigns.

If there is a God, he's an angry kid on an anthill.

I'm what I like to call a pessimistic realist.

We're the 'wtf!' on Earth's Animal History Lineage Chart. A sentient being. Human Being, even. Never before in the history of the universe has there been a competant species capable of what we're capable of. And eventually, we're going to rid the universe of ourselves. Life's purpose is to die, that's why we're all here.

(I was left in a dark room a lot as a kid.)

That is a fairly large assumption to make. Considering cosmologists believe the universe to be approximately 13.7 billion years old. Also, when you take into account that the universe seems to be expanding in all directions at 10,000km/second. The sheer size of it after 13.7 billion years would leave more than enough room for other life-forms.

Coupled with the fact our solar system only began forming 4.6 billionish years ago. There is certainly no reason that an equal, or more developed creature could exist somewhere else. What is so special about humans, we have a developed cerebrum. Nothing so special it couldn't be accomplished by a mutation in any other species in the universe.

I would have to disagree with you Shihsou, but only a little bit. Its a small distinction in semantics but a large one in how it manifests itself.

One can never go against G-d as you state, because not only is it in everything, but if it happens, it must be G-d's will by definition. However, what people can do, is go against what G-d wants for you as an idividual.

As Golda Meir said so wonderfully, "We can forgive you for killing our children, but we can not forgive you for making our children killers."

(I'm trying to keep this short as possible, sorry if I end up ranting)

In Judaic thought, basically G-d has given everybody a nice blueprint on how best to go about their lives, and what they can do to enhance it. Any "Evil" act, is an act in which you knowingly and purposefully act against to what G-d has said is in your best interest. Anything that is self destructive in general is considered the most evil.

This can best be seen by the 3 things which you are suppose to be more willing to die then to commit them. Which I won't go into because they may appear insulting. But if you look at those three from the point of view of "Self destruction" of your soul it becomes very enlightening.

Oh, please, say them!
We won't get angry at you from what some old people wrote in a book thousands of years ago. After all, even if some kind of God gave them the message, they filtered it through their human brains, misconceptions and hates.
Is curiosity one of those things that taint your soul? *evilgrin*

Jewish Lite? You make us sound like mayo. Anyway... yeah, I'm a jew, but not chasidic or anything. That's far too intense. My father was christian and my mother jewish, so originally I did christams and chanukah. But recently my father passed, so the tradition's been fading.

Actually, I know a person whos characters (in Achaea, not Lusternia unfortunately) are always VERY atheistic. His last char got kicked out from Magi for telling their patron that she doesn't exist ( She only maggoted him for one day for doing so, but of course the Magi are so 'tolerant' that they had to kick him out - that guild is the rock bottom of Achaea, if you ever consider playing that MUD don't pick it ), but currently he's playing an atheist Priest. Doing good so far.

oi! you forgot the Episcopalians! Thats what I am... kind of like the catholics except half the amount of time to get rid of the same amount of sins!

HAHAHA!

To satisfy Iridel's curiosity... incase its not too late as I havn't looked here in some time...

The three things you are not allowed to do in Jewish Tradition even if someone has a gun to your head and will kill you if you don't is 1) Murder, 2) Sexual Immorality, and 3) Worshiping of the Stars.

The only exception to this rule is that if someone has enacted laws that are ment to demoralize the Jewish people, you are not allowed to break ANY law during that time even if someone will kill you if you do. Thats actually one of the main lessons of Chanukah and Purim (the next big holiday comming up in March... and Most fun might I add.. anyway....)

1) Murder is pretty obvious, however In Jewish Tradition each person is a microcosm of the universe in every way.. from our Biology to our Pyschology... Also, each person is unique and so if it were not for you the world would not exist. Since no one life is inherently better than another, to kill another person would mean you have forgotten this most fudemental aspect of creation and thus place yourself as a god like figure, because only G-d HAS to exist.. everything else is optional.

2) Sexual immorality would be any of the 9 (I think) forbiden relationships. Off the top of my head, from the guy's point of view,that would be... Sleeping with your Sibling, Sleeping with your Parent, Sleeping with your Parents's Sibling, Sleeping with a woman AND her Mother(not necessarily at the same time), Sleeping with a woman AND her daughter (not necessarily at the same time) Sleeping with your Father's Mother, Sleeping with your Father's Wife who is not your mother, Sleeping with the Sister of your Wife, Sleeping with someone as the same sex as you... I might have gotten some of them confused or whatnot... Anyway.. As each Human being is a microcosm of the universe, each act of copulation is the potential of creating a universe, and is infact a reacreation of the very process in which G-d Created the universe (on a metaphyscal level, and even in the use of ancient imagery, on a cellular level) All of these relationships somehow inherently cause confusion and screw up not only your relationship with that person but also that person's ability to have relationships with others. Relationship being defined here in a way thats very complex and specific... needless to say there are 613 catagories of commandments that are all set to help you understand what a relationship is and how it works.

3) Worshiping of the stars. This is normally translated as Idol worship, or Idolatry but I think that has a christian connoation that is not correct. Worshiping of the STars is basically the belief that if you pray and offer to some "God of the something" you can positivly affect that part of your life that you want to be enhanced. For example... If you wanted a child you would pray to the fertility god to give you a child. The problem with this from a Jewish Perspective is that basically, you are not really praying to some higher power to help you, you are in reality just praying to yourself and eleveating yourself to some god like status. You are esentially saying to the universe.. "Universe, your large and vast and incomprehensible, yet I still know whats best for me and the world around me, and if I want a child and you don't want to give me one, well then screw you! I'm going to go outside the rules that you have set up and try to convince the power that allows children to happen that it shouldn't listen to you, but rather should listen to me and do my bidding"

I hope that explains it. So basically, we have 1) The individual and the self 2) The relationship between individual and others and 3)the Relationship between the Individual and the Universe.. When you lose your perspective on the world, then you have to ask yourself if your life is still worth living.

Ok, I found that particularly interesting. I have a question that is probably quite relevant for alot of people at the moment.

With all the new homosexual law reforms going on. Regarding same sex marriages, and other various "law recognised couplings". Christians seem to be split on the issue, for example, some stick strictly to parts of the bible, and say it is totally immoral. While others seem to believe it is alright. I am curious, would all jewish sects agree that homosexuality is against gods will?

Also, and this is probably a little more varied depending on the sect, do jews want to push their beliefs on others, that it will bring down society? (As we have seen many christian groups doing, here in new zealand).

I am kind of interested in this, because I think there is a rather small jewish population in my country, and while christians are all in our face and on our news about it, I haven't heard much from the jewish perspective.

Well, I am a Secular Humanist. Which isn't a religion at all. It's very similar to athiesm. In fact, I voted for athiesm 'cause it was the closest choice. The only cosmetic difference is that if you ask an athiest "Do you believe in God?" they will say, "no."

If you ask a secular humanist if they believe in God, they will ask you "Which one?" ... and then they will say no.

Fundamentally, it's nothing more than a conviction that "God(s) has to play by his own rules". The universe may have a creator, it may not. But any resemblence between the actual creator and anything humans have thought up would be purely co-incidental. From that point onwards, everything has a rational explanation. As an example, in my own arrogant opinion, people who do not believe in evolution simply do not understand it. That being said, there's no guarantee we're going to get these explanations right.

So being a secular humanist is about examining everything with a skeptical, analytical, and dare I say scientific eye... And then deciding for yourself were to draw the line, what to believe in, and how hard you should hit people if they mention Paley's Watch.

Theres a common Jewish phrase... "Two Jews, Three Opinions"

There is a less common Jewish phrase ..."If you are born under the red planet, you will have a desire for blood. The choice is yours if this is the blood of a Murderer, a Butcher or a Surgeon"

The Jewish sects that do not beleive Kosher food is an issue, also do not beleive homosexual acts would be an issue. Notice I said homosexual acts, not homosxuality.

Infact, you would be hard pressed to find Jews saying they know G-d's will at all. Jews make up 0.001% of the world's population, 20% of those Jews would consider themselves Observant of Jewish Law. Ironically enough, the Bible states that this is a fact that will remain eternal.

In general, the only groups of Jews that try to push their ideas on others, or ones that target other Jews.

Jews believe in leading by example.. if nobody follows your example, thats their problem.

Also the Jewish community in New Zeland is indeed small... theres only one Kosher Butcher, and the Synagogue there is looking for a new Rabbi. (No I've never been to New Zeland, but thats the way the Jewish world is... And People think the world became small with the invention of the Internet) OH, and you would be surprised how hard it is to find Kosher Mutton with all those sheep!

Prepare to label me strange!

Actually my beliefs aren't all that strange. Basically when I come across a belief system, and learn about it, if something jumps out at me, and I say to myself "That actually makes a lot of sense" then I incorperate it into my own beliefs and values.

As a result my mind is much like a mishmash of different aspects of different things, but only the parts that make sense to me. Most of it comes from older beliefs, though my lack of any fundamental "core" belief plays havoc with more standardised religions.

I feel that no one "religion" can be 100% correct, since half of them are offshots of older beliefs in the first place. BUT if you can spend your lifetime trying to decipher what YOU YOURSELF think are the correct parts that you think make sense and apply to you as the individual, then it turns out better for yourself in the end.

It's all based on faith, therefore I want it to be something that I truly believe 100% in, and believe in 100% of it, rather than have to question parts of my own beliefs that I don't think make sense in comparison to the rest of it. This saves me the trouble of questioning myself further down the track.

I'm a straaaaaaaaange individual.

And by the way Daganev, that stuff was fascinating, in all seriousness.

Nah your not all that strange..

Nice to hear another person finds it almost as fascinating as I do.

The one thing that I have always been impressed about Jewish writings and teachings is that with the thousands of years of history, and hundreds of different authors in different countries, it is the most consistant and cross refrenced body of knowledge I have ever seen or heard of. More so to me than what they teach in highschools and community colleges in the science classes.

hmm, I've rewritten this paragraph three times to try to explain how its all linked, but what it comes down to, is based on knowing who a person's teacher was (the author always tells you) you can go back and forth between various books and the Talmud and see that when they are arguing over whether you light candles in an increasing manner or a decreasing manner, what they are really arguing about is if Lighting Candles is a holy act in which you can not take away from it, or if its a cultural historical act in which counting up would be counterproductive. This "silly" argument goes across the books for 500 years before an explanation of why we have always been doing it the same way is finally understood as much as it can be understood. Nothing beats the feeling of hearing thousands of years worth of schollars arguing right in front of you.