According to the book the Five rings, Written around the same time as Art of War. I think Nementh is correct.
In that book, the author writes about how he is disgusted by the schools that only stick to one weapon. Either the Katana or Polearm or Bow. He says each weapon has its use and place and you should have as many weapons in a fight as you can.

the reason why Katanas are cool is becuase of thier aesthtics. Simple design, looks nice and utilitarian and has lots of heart and soul and tradition poored into it. The same is true of Spanish weaponary but its not exoticcised.


However, I think they fit just as much as any other weapon... they just shouldn't be very affective.

The reason why katanas are cool are because the Samurai and Ninjas are cool, and most people are oblivious to what Ninjas or Samurai really are, so.. we'll just leave it at that.

A Knight, or any European who studied warfare was as much in love with their sword as a Japanese Samurai was. However, each Knight had his own sword, he wouldn't use his fathers sword, because that sword was part of his fathers soul, and would be buried with him.

Someone who talked to me about it the other day didn't even know what a ninja was AT ALL, let alone what they really are. The best they could come up with was "aren't they those green turtle things?" That nearly made me cry, really.

That's one of the funniest things I have ever heard.

Anyway, I think the reason some people are against having Asian weapons (which I partially agree with, by the way) is that they have also become a part of popular culture in some places, or at least, that's how I see it. I can also see why some people might want to include them. In the end, it's really up to whoever approves the weapon designs.

Just from a gut-feeling perspective of what's appropriate to the game, I'd have to agree that oriental weapons would feel out of place to me, even though I personally enjoy them.

That said, the katana is literally the finest sword ever manufactured. It's an oddity among slashing weapons in that it rewards technique over strength for effectiveness, but against a moderately to lightly armored target, there is no more advantageous blade. Simply put, katanas are designed to slice rather than hack. As a result, they can pass through considerably more material than is possible with something like a longsword (another fine weapon, please don't mistake me). It's hard to describe how much more effective this is, but the next time you are in the kitchen, compare how much force it takes to chop through a vegetable with a single stroke compared to slicing through it.

Incidentally, the Art of War is nearly two thousand years older than the Book of Five Rings.

I have to disagree with the Katana being the finest weapon ever crafted. Yes they can be made sharp, but ALL swords can be made that sharp. A katana is a very fragile weapon, espically if they are made in tradtional methods. They are two heavy for their size, and are fairly very balanced.

The Spanish, and in part Rome, had some of the 'finest' weapons. The Spanish rapiers to this day are the most balanced, and durable sabers.

And the gladius (Rome) is a perfect example of how to make a quality simple sword that is strong, sturdy and multi-functional.

No, no I can't agree that the katana is one of the finest weapons, it is to fragile...

It's a difficult point for me as well, since I do completely appreciate the weaponry developed throughout the rest of the world.

It's true that other swords can be sharpened to a comparable edge, however, nothing else is able to hold that edge through use like a katana, nor can anything else hold quite so fine an edge without oversharpening it to the extent that it will again quickly dull through use.

Regarding a katana being fragile, this is again true, but only if it is misused. It's simply not designed to be hacked with. However, when employed as intended, it's amazingly durable. Truly, you would be hard pressed to find another individual blade that could endure 300 years or more of continuous use and still be able to bisect a man at the hips with a single stroke without damage to the weapon.

The term 'katana' actually represents several markedly different swords created over several centuries. Modifications to the basic design to account for the general use of the blades and the prevailing tastes of the period led to a rather startling array of blade lengths, weights, and centers of balance. When you say too heavy, I can't help but be reminded of the slightly shorter and heavier blades meant for employ by mounted soldiers against footmen, such as the dotanuki. I'm not sure what style you are specifically referencing, but these were designed to cut through bone and armor and withstand the at times greater momentum of mounted combat against a relatively stationary target...they would match your description fairly well, but there are many other styles.

In any event, it's hard for me to accept their fragility without a specific reference.

there are actually heavy katanas, i have one back home. Its considered an antique but its not one of the finer katanas made(those cost heaps!) they were more for hmm if forget... general ornaments i think was the term... its like the dodgey type id say. I saw a real good one once though... i didnt think it was that heavy... not as light as a saber but i thought it was perfect for the stances used with it.

melanchthons right about that though like theres a way of dealing with the blades... just how using a rapier and saber is diffenrent and if you use one the way you use the other you break the blade or find it ineffective... the way to fight with a katana is unique in itself... I think thats one of the reasons not every one was given a katana... gotta know how to use it first

But then again i dont think im as enthustiastic about blades as you guys... I just played sports that involved them so i could be wrong...

We can always say the Katanas came from the far south part of the world before the basin became well the basin... its a fantasy world doesnt take much to make up a story

The issue I always had with "katanas" is the misunderstanding of them when used in pop culture, a Katana was the perfect weapon for fighting what it was designed to fight, which was very light armour or specific splinted armour. You put a katana against German full plate and its going to do nothing for you. Just as a broadsword was designed to abuse the fact that the opponent would be wearing armour, and so when its relatively blunt blade hit splint, it was a complete waste of time.

The laminated blades were designed as a necessity of the poor, poor quality of steel available in japan at the time. Which is the reason they can hold an edge so well.

Give me a cold forged iron claymore any day of the week.

Actually if your weapon is besigned to beat through platemail, and then you hit someone in splint, it quickly becomes more effective as bones crush...

If you laminated, or made a folded steel european weapon, it would hold the edge equally, however folded steel and lamination are the very things that make all katana's heavy weapons.

Now, I own two sabers (Spanish Rapiers) from 1420's spain. Their edge, while not what it was in 1420, is still very sharp, and no it has not been recently sharpned, you can tell that by looking at the blade. A 600 year old blade has a substional amount of 'darkening' (Oxidiation, although minor in some cases shows even in ancient Katanas.) meaning a sharpened edge would reveal 'grim' free blade. (This appears even after polishing.)

You also have Roman Gladius' and Spatha's that are still useable more then a thousand years later.

The weapon craft was different, but in the end it was no better the Europe, and in all cases but the edge of the weapon (which Europe came close to.) Europe exelled. Balance, versitility, weight, and inovation.

The truth of the matter is, if Anime and Manga were not so big in the US, and other parts of the world, this arguement would never of even come up.

Side note: German Plate Armor sucked... it was Gothic Plate mail that kicked ass (Sorry... had to make that tiny distinction because I could.)

whats 2000 years among friends?

Not I said over 1000 with Rome If I said 2000 people would expect me to know exact numbers

I will just have to agree to disagree with you, Nementh, as I think we are both too entrenched in our perceptions to accept any argument save that of actual physical experience to the contrary of our beliefs.

Well... my knowledge on the styles comes from firsthand at least if that means anything. I am an accomplished swordsman, and a mediocre fencer... and at open events, you occsionally get some kid with a katana (very well trained, not just a wannabe... qualifiers normally takes those guys out.) But after qualifiers, it becomes open and he is pitted agansit everyone. These events are almost always demoinated by the longsword-shield combonation. Only two events I can remember ended with something else winning. One was a women who used a french rapier style. (Rapier and Gauche) She won because she kicked the guys in the balls... which at the time there was no rule against...

The other was the reigning don of fencing... that was quite a show... the guy never took a hit, and only landed one, but the judge called it a fatel.

My own experience is limited to Eishin-Ryu Iaijutsu, so my understanding of Western weaponry is academic rather than experiential.

Out of curiosity, are these events run by any particular organization? They sound rather interesting.

They were, it was an orginzation out here in California trying to get the other sword types outside of Rapier reconized... It recently fell due to funding and insurance... This kind of work requires real armor, and it was either provide it, or require the combatants to provide it. Either way, it was going to cost someone a lot of money, and we simply could not get people to come watch and buy tickets...

There are other more succesfuly orginizations, but I can't remember any off the top of my head, but I do know Maryland has a very good one.

Back on topic please? Hehe. I thought this was about implementing new styles of design into forging...

Slightly on-topic
Some people feel that incorporating oriental weapons into a fantasy setting may be detrimental to immersion. I disagree, yet agree, with this sentiment. There are some games which can incorporate them seamlessly, as if they belong to the same setting. Examples are Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights, Final Fantasy Series etc.

On the other hand, oriental weapons seem ill-suited to some games, even if they are fanatsy or fiction. Examples are Warcraft (very strong western influence such as castles, knights etc), or Prince of Persia (woot avatar! strong middle-eastern setting...duh).

I can't really point a finger on why it is suitable for some games, yet ill-suited for others. I think it depends on how much the creators want to model the in-game content after real life parallels.

In Morrowind, for example, the Imperial Legion is modeled after the Roman Empire, which explains why the equipment on them is very 'western'. On the other hand, the 'demons' in the game (called Daedra) are purely fiction and largely invented by the company, so the creators can design them anyway they want without fear of conflict.

Way off-topic



I think it's very misleading to use 'fragile' to describe a weapon. Japanese and Chinese swords are reputed to be some of the hardest swords created. Their HRC score exceeds those of their western counter-parts.

I believe the word you are looking for is 'brittle'. This is purely by design, because of the way the weapon is supposed to be used.

As for japanese swords being heavy. What were you comparing them with? Anyone knows the weight of different swords? I googled for them but all I got were shopping catalogues