First, my point about the Aetherwave for the insane is because you feel that clan's have to exist IC and seem uncapable of accepting that they are OOC. If it is against the rules to have any type of IC justification then why don't you just suck it up and ignore them and everything about them? There is no clan hall for the OOC clan, it's members don't carry buttons declaring their membership, they interact with you in absolutely no way except the possibility of a mistell, which would exist for an OOC tell as well. This means that it is totally impossible for your character to even know about it's existance unless the members do something IC with the clan, which is against Divine Law.

Second, There is an OOC based comm channel in existance, it's called the OOC clans. This is a far better solution than a channel every character has access to because you can only get in through invites so only experianced characters will join and newbies won't be corrupted by the horrors that occur in OOC chat lines.



I guess I wasn't clear enough, this whole arguement is stupid. WHO tells you if someone is online. If you learn they are on another plane through them talking on an OOC chat line, WHO CARES? If they want to keep hidden they wouldn't talk. This is perhaps the most minor and pedantic point I have yet seen in this whole thread. There are hundreds of OOC and IC ways to find this kind of info out and OOC clans are in no way causing any kind of issue with this. If you can find one person who got killed cause of this info, please ask them to post with the log proving it. Otherwise, I can't see how this matters at all.



They really don't interact tangibly with the IC world. They give people a method to talk and a line in their honours if the clan isn't secret. Plus they can charge dues. That would be it. As for telling the difference between OOC and IC clans, that's what clanhelp is for. As for banning mentioning or acting about anything, you're the one who wants to ban people from doing something. I really don't care what you do or say about any clan.



If you really can't tell the difference between a chat channel and a game room, I honestly don't know what is wrong with you. The primary difference would of course be that one has no PHYSICAL component. The other does. One can only be used by choice and invitation, the other can be accidentaly entered. Did I mention that one is PHYSICAL the other isn't. I can't walk into a clan. Nor can I sit there, sleep there, fight there, or do anything with a clan but TALK. If the clan is secret then I can't even see it on honours. Oh, one other thing, players CAN'T EVEN BUY ROOMS YET so it doesn't matter.

In reply to Melanchthon, who brings up some excellent and well-reasoned points:

RE:(1) Why should there be no realm-wide chat channel (that can be turned on or off to appeal to only those interested, making it 'private' in a sense)? Is there a certain number of people who must be engaged on the channel before it becomes a problem? 30% of the realm, 50%? Or is the difference that you can ensure the quality of a character before allowing them entry? This would appear IC driven.

RE:(2) Indeed, I mentioned the possibility of secret clans in my original post. Providing all ooc clans are kept this way, perhaps it reduces the impact of the second point, you are quite correct.

RE:(3) I have a problem with changing the way clans are currently implemented in terms of coding. As I see it, at the moment their purpose is to allow the creation of character-run organizations. That is, they are currently an IC mechanism that the gods permit to be stretched to OOC purposes. You are quite correct in saying that the problem with IC interaction could be alleviated by redefining that purpose so that clans are instead OOC mechanisms (that is, they are purely a form of communicating with friends and totems/statues won't impact them), but then any IC organizations will suffer. These groups are now stretching an OOC mechanism to IC purposes, much as yahoo groups are used, and we know that such things are frowned upon.

RE:(4) And yes, secret/private clans will again reduce this problem by a very slight degree. Though, the same argument could be used to allow ooc private safe rooms where identities are masked. Much like the 'greeting halls' that I've seen in other muds, where you can log in separately to the game world and play around oocly. As before, is there a reason we don't have such things in Lusternia?

EDIT: And Templaralberic, I'm choosing not to respond to your arguments because they seem to be descending into personal insults, without any justification. I've seen enough of that on these forums to want to avoid encouraging more. *cough* Much as I'd -love- to argue with you.

Your whole arguement seems to be that people are doing something OOC in the game. Hate to break it to you but it's a GAME. I'll play it my way, you play it yours. OOC clans in no way harm you or anyone else as they break the suspension of disbelief far less than credits. So what if they offend you? I don't care. The administrators allow them for one reason: PEOPLE PAY THEM MONEY. It seems like most of the people who want OOC clans banned brag about how they don't buy credits cause they can earn them IC. What you are saying is: I don't pay for the maintenance and operation of this game but you should change it because the people who do play are doing something I find offensive even though it affects me in no real way.


You claim it causes a break in the game environment or that it disrupts your play? HOW?!?! If you don't want to hear it, turn the channel off or just don't join. If other people like it, what right do you have to tell them they can't play that way or that they are playing the game wrong?

A clan has no physical component. Neither does a game room. They are all 0's and 1's. You being in a clan is a variable flag. You being in that room is a variable flag.

Myself, I feel that OOC clans should be disallowed.

Now, I find myself slipping OOC when Eldanien is alone with Tarielenwe in a shop stockroom. It's convenient. Still, I should stop that - that's what AIM is for.

As well, same with OOC clans, I think. It goes beyond just following the OOC/IC knowledge as separate - there's a break from suspension of disbelief as soon as someone speaks in an OOC manner. Doing what we can to limit or remove this from the game environment would make it more immersive, I would think.

Myself, I don't use messages for OOC communication, and it somewhat irks me that others do when communicating with me. We have mental communication across planes on a wave level. Why not mental mail? Eh, one more opinion on the pile.

I concede that there is no difference between a realm-wide chat channel that is private in the sense that a player may choose to toggle it on or off based on their preference, and an OOC clan that is private in the sense that a player may again choose to 'toggle' it on or off based on membership to it. In both cases, it is not so much that the existance of an OOC medium is present, but that this may negatively impact the IC environment of the game by its presence. My only avenue of argument is therefore that OOC mediums do not negatively impact the IC environment of the game. Logically, this point is of dubious merit, so I must make my appeal based not on logic but on human nature; OOC clans are beneficial to the IC environment of the game in that they allow players an outlet to the natural emotions they experience as a result acting in-character, whereas without access to such outlets, it becomes more difficult to deal with these things objectively as a player, thereby increasing the probability of external impact upon their IC actions.


I agree with your evaluation of this point. I believe the best solution to be an actual flag in the clanleader commands that would allow them to set their clan as OOC. When set as such, it would disapear from their honors line, not be visible via HELP CLANLIST, and not be targetable as an organization. Barring this, I acknowledge that OOC clans are by and large a perversion of the IC intent of clans as organizations.


The argument for this is identical to what I stated in reply to your first response. The merit of any such arrangement is found solely as an outlet for players to things that would otherwise adversely impact their ability to remain objective while in-character. Regarding greeting halls and the like, I distinguish them by the amount of visible OOC impact their presence has on the game, in which regard I believe clans to be the most discreet and thus desirable alternative.

Hmm, I think I agree with almost everything you said (apart from an outlet being necessary in-game)... does this mean I lose the argument?

Yes.

Nuts! Damn you, Melanchthon!

Actually, your points made me seriously reevaluate my endorsement of OOC clans, and my final conclusion, though identical to my original, was made with entirely different motivation.

Removed because I'm a bloody moron and didn't see an entire page of posts.

Melanchthon, you're my new favorite poster on these boards. Even if I disagree with you, the way you've argued your points is wonderful compared to the idiocy that pervades the internet.

Don't do the whole 'you're all nerds' thing... it doesn't work. The majority of people here weren't trying to 'determine what Valek spends his hard-earned money on', but just saying that in their opinion, spending OOC money to buy an OOC chatroom shouldn't be a feature of Lusternia. There is nothing wrong with that.

looked to me like the crux of the Argument was that such an outlet is a good thing, so if you don't agree with that, the rest is just fluff.

Guides get payed in credits (although not a lot) so all those arguments about credits and gold and business and the "point" of the game, I don't think are valid.

If you allowed clans to be flagged as OOC and not be targeted, then you wouldh ave people making IC clans with OOC flags on them for secrecy stuff. And this is where the problem lies. I can say that my clan is IC or OOC but unless your in it, you don't know if I'm telling the truth. even then, when you are in it, you don't know if I'm using the information IC or OOC.


Although, I think we should collect the 60% of the people who don't like ooc clans and lets set up statues all over the place tuning statues to all the OOC clans out there. I mean.. its ooc it won't affect their charachter.

it will annoy the player, but they should know its done for OOC purposes and so ignore any RP that might happen around it. Their charachter didn't -Really- die.
:sarcasm:

This is an excellent point. As things currently stand, real secrecy within a clan is not possible, if just for the simple fact that the clan name will always appear in the honors of the clanleader regardless of current clan settings. Even in a secret clan, where members appear as an anonymous voice during clan discussion, the clanleader is always visible by name to the other members. What real justification is there for this? Honestly, I believe there is none. Even induction, which requires the most contact between clan members, can be easily and anonymously handled with stimulating role-play via letter by the leaders.

Secret clans should not be visible on the clanleaders honors, nor should the clanleader be automatically revealed when using the clan channel.

I would actually respect and appreciate a Divine opinion on why this is not currently the case.

That argument is actually illogical. Essentially, all communication relating to Lusternia works on an honor system. It makes the necessary assumption that any information known by the player that could not also reasonably be known by the character will not be allowed to influence the decisions that character makes. This is inclusive of any medium of communication, within or outside of the game. Following it at all times is the definition of good role-play, since by doing this your characters will remain IC at all times and be driven by their own internal motivations. Since you've no way to discern someone's thoughts or to know with complete certainty the standards of role-play they maintain, speculation on these is pointless.

I'm going to assume this entire statement is made in complete jest, since you are suggesting OOC knowledge be used IC to punish other characters for OOC reasons, and your argument up to this point has been against OOC based actions within the game. Which everyone who has so far argued either for or against OOC clans has agreed on, incidentally.

Well said. Perhaps thier text based selves can die, because really, it's not death!

Having seen valek, clanhead of the carnival, rant, OOCly, rudely, and stupidly, on magnagora CT... I can safely say I don't think he should be allowed the clan.
Rough quotes, can be: "I'll get the f er shrubbed" in regards to furloch, or "This is f awful, the quest just happens to be bugged right when I do it".
Can't forget the "What the f is this? I haven't done anything and they maggoted me! I buy credits, I'm a goddamn customer, I have rights". Yes, folks, he does things like this when angered. They unmaggoted him, which disgusted me. But I can understand wanting him to shut up. Can't forget what else he said "Me and my boys will leave this game". Yeah, great roleplay. Shows what a paragon Valek is of seperating IC and OOC. And "He's angry" Isn't reason to sling abuse, use the f word dozens of times, along with other words, over CT, referring to someone OOCly, spewing abuse OOCly about how he shouldn't be maggoted, etc. Anyone trying to ask him to be quiet was shot down by... Well, let's think... Brona! Big surprise, there. Sorry for the foul words, but yes, he did swear that much, or more.

EDIT: I forgot his total, constant lack of capitalising anything, punctuating anything, etc. Can't forget his rants. He's ranted about furloch, about his punishment for saying IG "I'll get you shrubbed" to furloch, he's ranted about "How the divine favour celest" because a quest bugged and he couldn't do it. The lack of punctuation, could slide. The repeated, foul languaged, OOC ranting on Magnagora CT... Only reason I didn't file an issue, was I knew the second I did, I'd end up ICly ousted from Magnagora for something, probably "Disrespect". So to all those saying OOC clans are fine, look at the kind of person running dark carnival.

That's my 2 gold.

aye, though the same could be said for some of those in Celest, the argument about a place for them to 'rant OOC' isn't really all that valid, considering the brief time I spent with a character in Magnagora, he and others talked the exact same way in CT....if that's what you call roleplay, maybe you need to look at HELP ROLEPLAY a few dozen more times.

I completely agree with Gol. A friend from Magnagora showed me quotes of what Valek says when he's angry. And he does go OOC, a lot.

Not to make any dig at Valek... Well, yeah, it is a dig, really... but to say he goes OOC is wrong. I've not once witnessed him actually roleplay, beyond threatening anyone who contradicts him with whatever IC power he has, or using his IC power to get his own way. So really... he is OOC most of the time. I've seen him just talk about stats this, credits that, 'What stats does this champion gear give' etc, etc, etc. He doesn't just do it when he's angry, he just acts more.. crude, when angry.

I don't know what he is in regards to the DC clan in other realms... I don't know anyone like him elsewhere... Not on imperian, At least, but he could just be less noticeable there.

We didn't unmaggot him because we wanted him to shut up, that's what the "mute" button is for. We unmaggoted him because of a technical error which meant the proof of what he had done was not available to us. Without proof, we can't really punish someone. Rest assured this was fixed quickly, so nobody can get away with anything anymore!