Greater Pentagram

by Melanchthon

Back to Common Grounds.

Narsrim2005-01-07 17:49:13
QUOTE(Melanchthon @ Jan 7 2005, 01:31 PM)
Well, as I see it, the counter to Greater Pentagram is to send ranged attacks in to it, or lure someone out of it. You can also legitimately sprint through or burrow past one, as well as teleport in normally, though I think that last may be miswoven.
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Ok, I will admit I failed to include something in my last post. Assume everything I said + there is a flamed monolith in the room. As for ranged attacks, what exactly would that be in Lusternia? My sylph gusts arrows. When was the last time your were hit with an arrow... and even there were arrows, regular shield stops those (at least in the other IRE games). Thus, we update the scenario to be:

Greater Pentagram + flamed monolith sigil + regular pentagram + sitting

As for luring someone out, the only skill that has such potential would be beckoning. Simply sitting on your bum stops that... and you can sit in a greater pentagram.

Also, sprinting and burrowing do not get around greater pentagram as of the last time I tested it which was like 2 minutes prior to this post. The only skill that gets around greater pentagram currently is moonbeam and I imagine that was an oversight.
Melanchthon2005-01-07 17:49:40
QUOTE(terenas @ Jan 7 2005, 05:44 PM)
Unfortunately only Magi and Moondancers have ranged attacks, and those are easily stopped by a shield. Theoretically you can send in an angel, demon, or faes to break the shield then attack, but again, they can reshield. If Lusternia had stars tarot, that might be useful in that scenario.

That last is an interesting point. I'm not a Tarot user, but isn't there a skill in it that allows you to toss tarots within the same area?

Being able to use a Greater Pentagram and a regular Pentagram together does seem very strong, though. Perhaps only being able to maintain one or the other would be better?
Unknown2005-01-07 17:52:56
The Prism of Trueheal should be able to block any form of attack. All a person can do is just stand there because any action will disvole the barrier
Melanchthon2005-01-07 17:53:39
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Jan 7 2005, 05:49 PM)
Also, sprinting and burrowing do not get around greater pentagram as of the last time I tested it which was like 2 minutes prior to this post. The only skill that gets around greater pentagram currently is moonbeam and I imagine that was an oversight.

You can't sprint or burrow in to a Greater Pentagram, but you can go past one into the next room with them, was what I actually meant.
Narsrim2005-01-07 17:54:40
QUOTE(Melanchthon @ Jan 7 2005, 01:49 PM)
That last is an interesting point. I'm not a Tarot user, but isn't there a skill in it that allows you to toss tarots within the same area?

Being able to use a Greater Pentagram and a regular Pentagram together does seem very strong, though. Perhaps only being able to maintain one or the other would be better?
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Just for the record, regular pentagram stops that and furthermore, let's assume they could fling cards in at you... what could they really do? With a monolith in the room, you could not be summoned out. They could hang, lovers, etc. you but really... that would just be a waste of cards. You could still heal back up, etc.

And regular pentagram also stops Raging Moon. Furthermore, a -lot- of major quests mobs are inside so it wouldn't even be possible.
Narsrim2005-01-07 17:56:42
QUOTE(Melanchthon @ Jan 7 2005, 01:53 PM)
You can't sprint or burrow in to a Greater Pentagram, but you can go past one into the next room with them, was what I actually meant.
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Ok, fair enough. However, my scenario involved the greater pentagram being cast in the room that someone else wanted to enter. In this case, nothing (except moonbeam which is up in the air as a bug) could get through.

Melanchthon2005-01-07 17:57:48
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Jan 7 2005, 05:54 PM)
Just for the record, regular pentagram stops that and furthermore, let's assume they could fling cards in at you... what could they really do? With a monolith in the room, you could not be summoned out. They could hang, lovers, etc. you but really... that would just be a waste of cards. You could still heal back up, etc.

And regular pentagram also stops Raging Moon. Furthermore, a -lot- of major quests mobs are inside so it wouldn't even be possible.

...that would be why I said I felt Greater Pentagram and regular Pentagram were too strong together, and that it should be one or the other, you know.
Narsrim2005-01-07 18:04:33
Ack, I forgot about the Hartstone during this first post.

For the record, the following classes can get greater pentagram:

Serenguard
Ur'Guard
Paladins

Nihilists
Celestines

Aquamancers
Geomancers

The following classes that could get around greater pentagram if normal pentagram could not be used:

Geomancers
Aquamancers
Hartstone*


Given how many classes can get this skill, I don't think it should be left to Magi and Druids as the sole guilds able to get through it. Furthermore, if a Magi was inside a greater pentagram, he or she could fire out at anyone firing in... so for any success, it would take multiple Magi or Druids to flush someone out. Simply put, it should be this damn complicated or restricted.
Unknown2005-01-07 18:08:14
Aquamancers or Geomancers couldn't get around if you had some kind of shield and a monolith. and were sitting.
Terenas2005-01-07 18:16:38
Um, Narsrim. Druids can also hit from another room away with their cudgel and sling. Surprising I know, but we actually have some active Hartstone members. Whoo. smile.gif
Melanchthon2005-01-07 18:17:09
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Jan 7 2005, 06:04 PM)
Let's assume you could not use both. It would certainly be more fair than it is but would it still be fair in general? Hell no. You were standing at Rowena (indoors) for a long time with Greater Pentagram up. Even if you could not use normal pentagram, the only class that could bother you would be a Magi.

Alright, assuming you have at least 2 Magi against a tanky character, or one for anyone else, staff point should do the trick if you can't combine both types of pentagram.

That said, your point is compelling. Insofar as being able to lock down a single room from entry is too powerful, that is exactly what Greater Pentagram does. A matter of realm balance, then, if it needs to be addressed.
Narsrim2005-01-07 18:19:25
QUOTE(terenas @ Jan 7 2005, 02:16 PM)
Um, Narsrim. Druids can also hit from another room away with their cudgel and sling. Surprising I know, but we actually have some active Hartstone members. Whoo.  smile.gif
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My mistake. I editted my post to fix this. As if I didn't feel retarded enough when I walked into Magnagora twice this month (I got out once, woohoo), I left out the Hartstone.
Unknown2005-01-07 19:21:50
Let us please remember, Greater Pentagram is a Trans ability.

Good Trans abilities: Conglutination, Greater Pentagram.
Bad Trans abilities: World Tarot, Wrack.

(my opinion, btw). I don't learn skills to trans that have Bad Trans abilities.
Ethelon2005-01-07 19:33:23
If you are quick enough, the Rad rune can be used against the group inside the pentagram, before they all shield and sit of course.
Sylphas2005-01-07 19:49:45
Good trans ability and "this has the capability to completely screw game balance" are a bit different.

What if it worked like a prismatic barrier? If you did something other than sit still and channel the pentagram, it'd break. The problem with that would that it would then be very easy for a Mage/Druid/Rage coven to force you to shield/heal and therefore drop the barrier. You could counter this by having healers there to keep you from dying, but Magnagora hasn't got healing, so they'd have a legitimate balance complaint. The idea of only having one type of Pentragram up at a time would suffer from the same problem.

Making it wear off after a while wouldn't be much better, because you could just throw another one up immediately. Maybe only make it usable for one day a month, like how Autumn works? You'd then at least have to rotate who's keeping up the pentagram.
Terenas2005-01-07 19:52:34
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Jan 7 2005, 07:49 PM)
Making it wear off after a while wouldn't be much better, because you could just throw another one up immediately.  Maybe only make it usable  for one day a month, like how Autumn works?  You'd then at least have to rotate who's keeping up the pentagram.
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I reall like that idea. Just limiting the caster has to be inside the greater pentagram the whole time isn't a huge restriction since the fixes to it.
Unknown2005-01-07 19:53:28
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Jan 7 2005, 03:49 PM)
Good trans ability and "this has the capability to completely screw game balance" are a bit different.

What if it worked like a prismatic barrier?  If you did something other than sit still and channel the pentagram, it'd break.  The problem with that would that it would then be very easy for a Mage/Druid/Rage coven to force you to shield/heal and therefore drop the barrier.  You could counter this by having healers there to keep you from dying, but Magnagora hasn't got healing, so they'd have a legitimate balance complaint.  The idea of only having one type of Pentragram up at a time would suffer from the same problem.

Making it wear off after a while wouldn't be much better, because you could just throw another one up immediately.  Maybe only make it usable  for one day a month, like how Autumn works?  You'd then at least have to rotate who's keeping up the pentagram.
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Wrong, The great pentagram shouldn't be changed because its desgin is to keep enemies out and yourself in. the only way for it to be dissolved is if the person moved out of the area. Its a good trans ability because I made alot of people mad with it when I casted great pentagram and none of them could enter the room or beckon me out tongue.gif
Shiri2005-01-07 20:09:16
QUOTE(terenas @ Jan 7 2005, 08:52 PM)
I reall like that idea. Just limiting the caster has to be inside the greater pentagram the whole time isn't a huge restriction since the fixes to it.
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I like it too. After all, it works for Distortion, which while not a transcendant skill doesn't really solve a lot as Nexi, Tesseraction, and those arties, so I don't see why it couldn't work for this.
Archthron2005-01-07 20:41:09
Couldn't you have two or more people beckon at the same time? That could get them out if you're lucky, and if not then you can try again.
Daganev2005-01-07 20:50:57
I like how the topic went from "is there a point?" to "Lets get rid of it!"

I also find it odd how the same people who want to make Greater Pentagram weaker, think spores are completely reasonable.