I think spores should be gotten rid of entirely, they make no sense whatsoever. First of all, how the hell can you sneeze yourself across the world, and second, why should there be a way to get out of every possible trap. You shouldn't need 8 people just to catch a snorter.

Aside from what I've heard on the forums, which seems to be constantly argued over, I can't say that I know exactly what does or does not stop spores. However, the sheer number of times they've been used to escape extremely skilled combatants is curious, and it's on this more than anything else that I question their balance relative to other means of distance travel.

Knowing the mechanics of a skill is all well and good, but it's invariably how it is used that determines balance adjustments.

You have to remember that its not just the person with the skill that can use spores....anybody can.

I think there is a distinction between IC and OOC balance. Most times, when people speak of balance, they refer to IC balance, the balance between characters within the game. The archetypal example of this is a skill available to one class that allows them an unfair advantage against most or all other classes without a countering ability or situation being readily available in practice.

OOC or realm balance issues occur when something available to most or all players negatively impacts the game. A good example of this was the change to Planar Summon that prevented people from being summoned into enemy territory, since this was something that negatively impacted the game and was available to the entire realm.

Alyssandra, you state that spores are balanced because they are available for anyone to use. Assuming that the ability to grow mushroom circles does not appreciably affect ones access to spores in general, and specifically to spores that lead places you want to go, then your argument addresses IC balance but ignores realm balance. If that assumption is wrong, then it ignores both IC and OOC balance.

As you state it, it is the same as saying anything is permissable so long as everyone can do it. I personally don't think Lusternia would be viable if it followed that maxim.

Wait I didnt say it was balanced, I was merely adding to the debate a point which hadn't been raised so far.

I'll break it down for you.

THEY ARE MAGIC SPORES!!! Just like the magic hermit tarot, just like the magic rescue ability of champions, just like the ultra-super nifty magic transplanar cubix, and just like the magic ghosting ability you have. There are -many- ways to instantly teleport to safety or dodge danger. You have ghosting. You ghost, you run around and explore while you cannot be hurt (gotta love how Violet in Lowmagic doesn't hurt ghosts even though it should). Not only do you get out of danger, you can explore secure areas, and un-ghost in a room with a Totem and it does not fire. If your willpower gets too low, abuse the arena for full restoration and repeat. Let's take that away instead.

Ah, I see. In that case, I owe you an apology for assuming you were actually trying to make a contribution to one of the two relevant arguments, based on the implication of your post.

I should have noted that you didn't actually say anything meaningful.

If I had been making a point I would have qualified it. I was merely dropping in a piece of information which up to that point had been ignored. You then made an argument to counteract said point. So now it can be seen as dealt with.

Well, remember that imbalance only occurs without readily available counters.
Hermit is stopped by a monolith sigil. A transplanar device requires you to be unbound, not prone, not paralyzed, and outside. Ghosting requires that you be unbound, not prone, not paralyzed, and consumes truly amazing quantities of willpower.

Champion rescue shouldn't even be considered, though, since it is rather limited and specific in application.

Melanchthon, I believe the four examples he gave were addressing Thorgal's first question.... as in how can magic spores be realistic. Not in regards to their balance issues. I think he was also commenting about what you can do -in- ghost form, rather than its use in escaping battle.

While I am similarly frustrated by a ghost's imperviousness, I don't think it should be downgraded/changed at all. Just wanted to make that clear.

It's always a matter of perspective, isn't it? In Achaea, I used to hate and fear all Serpentlord class people because I couldn't see them or even find them. Now, I'm a Serpentlord, and I love being able to hide, cloak, ghost (different ghost), and phase.

I don't like those who can ghost because it seems easy for them to get past all defenses and reach their destination. I don't use spores because I'm afraid there might be side effects. If I were a Necromancer, I'd feel quite different about both abilities.

Hmm, you're correct that I overlooked that.

Just tested: spores can be used on monolith sigil, and doesn't take balance or equilibrium. Hermit takes balance, and can't be used to go from a mono sigil, or to a mono sigil. (takes balance whether you travel or are stopped by mono)

The only difference between spores and a transplanar device is that you can snort spores while prone and you can snort spores indoors. If you look at ghosting as an escape ability, you will see that the only difference is that you can snort spores while prone whereas you would have to stand and ghost. If you look at burrowing, you can burrow while prone. Thus, there is no component of spores that isn't found in some other escape method.

If you still believe that you can snort spores while paralyzed, bound, etc. I am offering you a set of free spores (outside of Serenwilde) to test this with. Since everyone can use them, everyone can see. Once again:

- You cannot snort spores paralyzed
- You cannot snort spores while bound
- You cannot snort spores while impaled
- You cannot snort spores while crucified
- You cannot snort spores while pinned

As for the champion rescue ability, Valek is quite well known to rescue/ghost. Rescue does not take balance or eq. Thus, he can blindly save his buddies and get away with no way to stop it. That, my friend, is imbalance.

You do realize though that you are comparing a skill against artifacts, dont you. Also you are ignoring the fact that spores, can not only be used by anyone, they can also be used to escape with a group. That can not be said of any other instant escape skill.

Yeah; Hermit leaves behind your group and entourage.

I think most people's concern is that spores is so universally useful that it has all of those components whereas other abilities only have some.

Regardless though, it's the use that makes the abuse. There are other very strong skills I've never blinked at because I've never seen them used like I have spores...that is, in a manner that seems to circumvent the skill of your opponent while producing a dramatic effect.

Wasn't the original intention of the thread was to find out what stops spores? How did that get turned into that you can escape with an entire party or is compared to transplanar prism?

Also, spores have Hermit's limitation in that it has to be prepared ahead of time and only lasts a few months before they decay. Whereas ghost for example is always available to the Necromancer as long as he's able to perform it. This wasn't intended to compare spore to ghost, but to say spores have it much better than all the other escape ability is wrong.

You obviously haven't used either ghost or spores in a combat situation yourself. Spores has saved my ass numerous times while trying to ghost just got me killed...but as soon as the serens get smart and forbid the placing of mushroom circles outside of serenwilde, I'll have to use ghost again.

I like saving Hermit cards and spores in my shop