Elryn2005-01-20 05:20:41
I didn't think you were able to summon/beckon people out of their city? If that is still the case, then there is no need to summon them into the city for mockery alone. Just go and kill them. I don't see anything wrong with the current system.
In regards to the killing of guards - why can't a city just put a statue/totem at the entrance and imobilize an attacker?
In regards to the killing of guards - why can't a city just put a statue/totem at the entrance and imobilize an attacker?
Drago2005-01-20 05:27:28
Ok, think of it this was Elryn: I'm going to defend my city in any way I can. That is my roleplay as an -insert class- of -insert city/commune-. So, I beckon a group of enemies that's standing outside the gates killing people.
One of them issues me (because they're the scummiest of the scum and should go back to Achaea) I get peaced/disfavored/whatever.
On -every- other ire mud, the people I beckoned would go "well, that was quite incredibly stupid of us."
However, because of summon and barge/tackle, beckoning from one room away is illegal according to the rules.
A better way would just be to stop people from being beckoned/barged/gusted/tackled (and of course, summoned/lusted/wisped/demense summoned) -into- a room that is directly outside a city. Then you can be safe in the knowledge that if you're stupid enough to -walk- that close to a city you're enemied to, you are going to die.
In regards to the statue/totem thing: Statues can be destroyed, easily. Totems are limited, though I'd assume they'd have one at each entrance. Though statues/totems aren't that scary if you can cure.
One of them issues me (because they're the scummiest of the scum and should go back to Achaea) I get peaced/disfavored/whatever.
On -every- other ire mud, the people I beckoned would go "well, that was quite incredibly stupid of us."
However, because of summon and barge/tackle, beckoning from one room away is illegal according to the rules.
A better way would just be to stop people from being beckoned/barged/gusted/tackled (and of course, summoned/lusted/wisped/demense summoned) -into- a room that is directly outside a city. Then you can be safe in the knowledge that if you're stupid enough to -walk- that close to a city you're enemied to, you are going to die.
In regards to the statue/totem thing: Statues can be destroyed, easily. Totems are limited, though I'd assume they'd have one at each entrance. Though statues/totems aren't that scary if you can cure.
Davrick2005-01-20 06:44:28
I remember the other day Aris, Narsrim..and I think Thaddeus were camped outside Magnagora's North gate and Thaddeus was angel beckoning out of the city while Aris and Narsrim were firing into the city at people. I charged and struck Thaddeus repeatedly to try and at least keep him off balance a bit and he started taunting me in tells..I don't know what it was verbatim but it was something like daring me to defy divine decree and tackle him into the guards.
Drago2005-01-20 06:53:02
I did. I beckoned Narsrim into the guards.
*look disfavor*
*look disfavor*
Olan2005-01-20 07:25:25
I think this is a clear case of over-adjudication, and abuse by attackers (on all sides) that goes unpunished. I don't know if it goes unreported, but the fact that someone can stand outsite of a city, attack into it, beckon out of it, and MOCK people, daring them to defend their city and get the Divine Smackdown for it...that is beyond lame...beyond cowardly by the attackers...and I hope the Admin does something about this.
Drago2005-01-20 07:39:33
*chin* Looking through my logs got me this conversation:
The main problem I have with that last tell, in particular, which I should've said when speaking with them, is that if I did manage to kill Narsrim, he would have gotten suspect on me. Meaning he could have gone there again and I could have done nothing to stop him.
The second problem I have to basically ignore the way I make Drago think in order to live by rules that just don't make sense in terms of Lusternia's roleplay.
If anything else is obvious, the anti-beckon from a room away rule is incredibly abusable, especially considering that they can beckon us out to kill us, but we can't beckon them in, even if they'd been attacking us.
And no, that isn't the whole conversation.
QUOTE
You tell The Oneiroi, Administrators of Fate, "Ah, I meant in terms of summons automatically failing there. It just doesn't make much sense to me that a city enemy can stand directly outside the city and the only way of moving them would be to go out and fight them, putting me at great risk, whereas they can do just about anything to me without having to worry about any consequences."
The voices of the Oneiroi tell you, "You could just ignore them, since outside the city is considered the same for you and them in terms of the Avenger, so they are at the same disadvantage as you are."
You tell The Oneiroi, Administrators of Fate, "But in terms of my character, and just about every other character, it wouldn't be good roleplay to ignore a city enemy that is near the city. In particular, most characters will do anything in their power to stop an enemy."
The voices of the Oneiroi tell you, "They go out and fight them. How you choose to roleplay your character is your decision, and if you have a problem with this rule you are free to take it up officially, but until such time as it is repealed, you must follow it."
The voices of the Oneiroi tell you, "You could just ignore them, since outside the city is considered the same for you and them in terms of the Avenger, so they are at the same disadvantage as you are."
You tell The Oneiroi, Administrators of Fate, "But in terms of my character, and just about every other character, it wouldn't be good roleplay to ignore a city enemy that is near the city. In particular, most characters will do anything in their power to stop an enemy."
The voices of the Oneiroi tell you, "They go out and fight them. How you choose to roleplay your character is your decision, and if you have a problem with this rule you are free to take it up officially, but until such time as it is repealed, you must follow it."
The main problem I have with that last tell, in particular, which I should've said when speaking with them, is that if I did manage to kill Narsrim, he would have gotten suspect on me. Meaning he could have gone there again and I could have done nothing to stop him.
The second problem I have to basically ignore the way I make Drago think in order to live by rules that just don't make sense in terms of Lusternia's roleplay.
If anything else is obvious, the anti-beckon from a room away rule is incredibly abusable, especially considering that they can beckon us out to kill us, but we can't beckon them in, even if they'd been attacking us.
And no, that isn't the whole conversation.
Flow2005-01-20 07:43:57
There should be a sort of "city suspect" thing, in which the city gains suspect for a certain amount of time when they pointstaff in/beckon out anyone, and may then be beckoned/attacked freely by members from one room inside the city for that time. Or something. I know that doesn't cover mocks and taunting.
Aris2005-01-20 08:05:01
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*pant*HAHAHAHAHAHA
So let me see...we're whining because we sat outside of Magnagora successfully for a while? Since none of us who were camped outside the gates can tank 14 guards like Daevos, we can't very well raid, and since guards follow you around in the city (i tried to sprint past them, didn't work), we sit outside. You could ignore us, but your RP says you have to come fight us. Think of it as a raid. We don't have to worry about guards, no, but you don't have to worry about us if you just let us sit around until we get bored.
So let me see...we're whining because we sat outside of Magnagora successfully for a while? Since none of us who were camped outside the gates can tank 14 guards like Daevos, we can't very well raid, and since guards follow you around in the city (i tried to sprint past them, didn't work), we sit outside. You could ignore us, but your RP says you have to come fight us. Think of it as a raid. We don't have to worry about guards, no, but you don't have to worry about us if you just let us sit around until we get bored.
Olan2005-01-20 08:18:25
QUOTE(Aris @ Jan 20 2005, 01:05 AM)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*pant*HAHAHAHAHAHA
So let me see...we're whining because we sat outside of Magnagora successfully for a while? Since none of us who were camped outside the gates can tank 14 guards like Daevos, we can't very well raid, and since guards follow you around in the city (i tried to sprint past them, didn't work), we sit outside. You could ignore us, but your RP says you have to come fight us. Think of it as a raid. We don't have to worry about guards, no, but you don't have to worry about us if you just let us sit around until we get bored.
So let me see...we're whining because we sat outside of Magnagora successfully for a while? Since none of us who were camped outside the gates can tank 14 guards like Daevos, we can't very well raid, and since guards follow you around in the city (i tried to sprint past them, didn't work), we sit outside. You could ignore us, but your RP says you have to come fight us. Think of it as a raid. We don't have to worry about guards, no, but you don't have to worry about us if you just let us sit around until we get bored.
32361
Alright...I think you missed at least part of the point there, Aris...We DO have to worry about people outside the gates, given that they can a)attack at range into the city, b)beckon people out into the city, c)engage us in DEFENSE of our city with the avenger as a neutral party and our nexus out of range for conglutination. In other words, it is entirely unlike a raid, and using the 'we don't have a Daevos' argument won't get you anywhere in a world governed by rational admins. Your lack of skills or ability to raid doesn't mean it should be allowed for you(all) to sit out there and harass people
Drago2005-01-20 08:19:38
Yes. I'm whining because you abused a rule so you could stand around and attack Magnagoran citizens who, because you had a demense and a group of "good" combatants there, do anything in return.
You say that, Aris, as though its a good thing you abused the rules.
You say that, Aris, as though its a good thing you abused the rules.
Elryn2005-01-20 08:20:17
QUOTE(Drago @ Jan 20 2005, 03:27 PM)
Ok, think of it this was Elryn: I'm going to defend my city in any way I can. That is my roleplay as an -insert class- of -insert city/commune-. So, I beckon a group of enemies that's standing outside the gates killing people.
32327
I agree with the Oneoiri and surprisingly Aris. Why not just go out and fight them? I bet that if we make it so that there is no way to get near a city without being slaughtered by hundreds of guards, we will hear just as many complaints about how unrealistic it is that cities are impenetrable.
If its your rp to go and kill them, and keep killing them until the avenger knows you intimately, then do it. Changing the configuration so you have an excuse to pk someone sitting outside your city repeatedly is just as abusable, and no more conducive to 'realistic roleplay' than allowing everyone to slaughter whomever they like limitlessly.
I just haven't been convinced of any pressing need for it to be changed. The only exception would be if people can beckon -out- of cities, but that should be just as impossible as summoning. In city = in danger of guards. Out of city = not in danger of guards.
Drago2005-01-20 08:25:52
QUOTE
If its your rp to go and kill them, and keep killing them until the avenger knows you intimately, then do it. Changing the configuration so you have an excuse to pk someone sitting outside your city repeatedly is just as abusable
That is currently a reason to pk someone siting outside my city. Unfortunatly, the Avenger will ignore the fact they were standing -directly- outside my city and name me a bully anyway.You're missing the point, Elryn. Aris and co sat outside of magnagora and MOCKED the fact we couldn't retaliate properly and dared people to beckon them into the city.
If they weren't such a bunch of issuing scum, I would have beckoned them a second time as well.
Elryn2005-01-20 08:35:48
QUOTE(Drago @ Jan 20 2005, 06:25 PM)
Unfortunatly, the Avenger will ignore the fact they were standing -directly- outside my city and name me a bully anyway.
You're missing the point, Elryn. Aris and co sat outside of magnagora and MOCKED the fact we couldn't retaliate properly and dared people to beckon them into the city.
You're missing the point, Elryn. Aris and co sat outside of magnagora and MOCKED the fact we couldn't retaliate properly and dared people to beckon them into the city.
32369
Indeed, if Elryn kills someone (which, is probably close to impossible) for insulting his brother, the Avenger will still name me a bully, even though I was fully justified in killing him.
I don't believe the Avenger is supposed to adjudicate whether someone is right or wrong in killing, only prevent excessive death at the hands of one character. In this case, regardless of how they were mocking you, it was still your choice to kill them.
Asarnil2005-01-20 17:27:04
I think it should be allowed - just make a rule that you are not allowed to summon/tackle. Being able to knock beseigers into the city makes sense and when it was abused and banned I was mightily peeved. Though to be honest that still wouldn't stop me - if a city enemy that I am not strong enough to kill is sitting outside my gates and waylaying citizens going through/using ranged attacks to hurt people inside my city you can be sure I will ignore the Divine Mandate and try and get the bastards at a disadvantage.
Melanchthon2005-01-20 17:31:44
QUOTE(Elryn @ Jan 20 2005, 08:35 AM)
Indeed, if Elryn kills someone (which, is probably close to impossible) for insulting his brother, the Avenger will still name me a bully, even though I was fully justified in killing him.Â
I think the reason that this gets people riled so much is not because citizens were being personally mocked, but because they were being taunted for not defending their city because of an out of character game mechanic.
Realistically, why should citizens have to enter a hostile demesne to defend the gates of their city? Is not forcibly controlling egress and ingress from a city the very defininition of a siege against it?
Please tell me why city defenses would not logically respond to this.
Unknown2005-01-20 17:47:51
Some people have been talking about realistic and unrealistic in their reasonings.
I have a severe problem with this. For one, try attacking a castle in medieval times or any other time period. When enemies were attacking a people's home, they would get pelted with rocks, arrows, spears, javelins, tar, fire, and in Monty Python's instance, cows.
I have a severe problem with this. For one, try attacking a castle in medieval times or any other time period. When enemies were attacking a people's home, they would get pelted with rocks, arrows, spears, javelins, tar, fire, and in Monty Python's instance, cows.
Asarnil2005-01-20 17:53:07
Cows were used in medieval times! Albeit it was usually the beseigers using them after they were dead and decomposing and interesting stuffs like that *grin*.
Lisaera2005-01-20 18:11:59
This is currently being considered. However, if we do change the rule it will most likely be entirely limited to if the person has entered the enemy territory in the last minute, and may well be limited to only the city/commune itself and not controlled villages.
Either way I will come back to you with a word soon. We do understand there are a lot of issues with this, but the fact is the reason it was put in in the first place was people were abusing this - if you don't want to get things made illegal, stop certain people from beckoning 20 or so people into full defences.
Either way I will come back to you with a word soon. We do understand there are a lot of issues with this, but the fact is the reason it was put in in the first place was people were abusing this - if you don't want to get things made illegal, stop certain people from beckoning 20 or so people into full defences.
Unknown2005-01-20 18:15:58
It's not about if they enter or not, Lisaera. It's about them being able to attack people inside the city while not being in it. Mage/Druid archetypes do this as well as Moondancers with the across the world kill skill. The Divine/Admin, if someone can attack the citizens of a city while within that city, they deserve to die by that city's defenses.
Thorgal2005-01-20 18:48:45
It started out as people summoning their target to the city gates, then tackling/beckoning them into guards...
Now it's made impossible to summon people near the city gates...why disallow beckoning into guards now? If the targets are at the city gates, they obviously ended there by their own will. I can't find a single viable reason to ban beckoning into guards now.
Now it's made impossible to summon people near the city gates...why disallow beckoning into guards now? If the targets are at the city gates, they obviously ended there by their own will. I can't find a single viable reason to ban beckoning into guards now.
