Just to explain my position so it is clear. According to what was said during this past event. Brona speaks for Luciphage and is directly under the leadership of Nil. Why? Because he is the "speaker" of the Nihilists. I'm not agreeing with or agreeing with all of this, but quite honestly it does make sense. If someone acts in a way that displeases the Demon Lords or Lady, they should be punished. The Demon Lords and Lady are no longer the Emanations and are not the Supernals (they never where). If someone talks trash about or disrespects one of them, the guild RP allows for any of the GR20's to merely outguild them without a second thought. If, and I do mean if, we could strip pacts it would be more of an RP based punishment and pacts are not hard to get.

THe problem with Rp punishment and stuff is that often people does not have the wisdom necessary to handle Rp conflicts and wouldn't take "NO" for an answer or jsut wouldn't take into consideration that other players are entitled to their share of fun.

And when you have people accessing that kind of power without having been trained to take into consideration the well being of their fellow players, they just tend to either boss people around or just don't care.
But allow me to quote you.

If someone talks trash about or disrespects one of them, the guild RP allows for any of the GR20's to merely outguild them without a second thought -Brona

And you guys know, that the game is made to be ahrd for rogues, so all the roleplay or a great deal of if.. MUST fit into the guild roleplay.

I'm sorry .. but i don't call that Rp. I think you guys have enough power as it is.. And if you want true power.. the only one that matters anyway.. You oughta get ready to Roleplay and build your influence in the guild with this.

If you are in a Divine's Order and a member of that Order speaks out directly against that Divine, how long do you think they will last in the Order?

The Nihilists serve and protect the Demon Lords and Lady. If you come to the guild for the skills and not the RP, you don't belong in the guild.

Hmm.. i and you and the guy in the corner.. yes YOU.. do belong to the guild.. the guild is just not reduced to just one person who would act like he is owning the game.

The game? You are being overdramatic. One person cannot do anything without the support of others. If a guild wants to be half ass about RP, that is their choice. The Admin, Master, and Champion lead the guild and try to lead the guild into a role of roleplay. If you don't like it, change it, but there is a reason why people consider the Nihilist as a whole to be one of the best roleplaying guilds in Lusternia. If Estarra, Roark, Raezon, or any of the other Divine don't like it, it's really very easy for them to change it. It's called talking. Not being melodramatic.

I'm not the one calling on the names of Divines to solve a mundane situation. And you dare to call me melodramatic.

Beside , i'm not arguing about the way you manage the Nihilist guild Brona.
But if truely i am melodramatic, it's because i can't believe it is that hard to convince people that roleplay is about having fun together and the -role-play of the secretaries is not about having some kind of righteous power trip. it's about the same role of a gamemaster.

I'm convinced that a good deal of the Lusternian population is responsible enough to fence for themselve in RL, pay their bill and stuff.. and that when they log on Lusternia, they're not looking for special people to point at things and say 'This is Baaaad' and "this is Gooood".
They're looking for exciting and exotic situations and not for kindergarten's warden.
And whatever could be achieved with repressive power, could be solved by roleplaying and discussing as well with less troublesome side effects.

Roleplaying in a community is much like freedom in today's world. Freedom is fine till you infringe on another person's freedom. It's a standard staying but it stands true, every action has a reaction. Actions have repercussions and no one stands on higher ground than anyone else with the exception of Estarra and Roark, then Matt with IRE. Being able to remove pacts would be the same as the Church in Achaea with excommunion. Unfortunately, the individual's feelings matter little in most cases when their actions effect the guild as a whole.

The way secretaries interact with the inguildees determine the kind of problem with which the guild will be confronted.

If per instance, the secretaries follow the line of the lesser efforts and of the lesser involvement in roleplay, only to be concerned by vague administrative problems, then it is normal for the inguildees to do as well. A handful of inguildees put off by the lack of roleplay, just goes berserk, which create an even more powerful needs for administrative powers, adding more works for the sec, less time to play and roleplay, more deluded people and so on and so forth.

The good side is that it is perfectly possible to create a good roleplay background with the same law with having the secretaries to roleplay. The only drawback is that the guild will be confronted with a handful of inguildees, who for various reasons, reluctantly join the roleplaying background. Does it mean that you'll have to force-feed them and if they are not agree, just kick them out because they don't belong to the gang.
hmm.. the temptation is great, i can almost feel you falling prey to the dark side.
But again, Lusternia is not a roleplay enforced mud, and yes, some people joins a guild for its skills .

So here, one would argue.. Then give me the power to ostracize for the sake of the holy Roleplay.

But, would it still be roleplay?

Since until now, the main and only argument has been that a guild 'is supposed' to have that kind of power because it would look cool. I'm going to answer back Roleplay 'is supposed' to be consensual, and in the last example that would be corrupted down to Roleplay is consensual as long as you're agreeing with the guys with the gun.

It's gonna sound cheesy but Yes, power corrupts the untrained minds, and having too much is a sure way for your dream or your ultimate purpose to end up corrupted .

That's probably why, the Church, that you seem to be so admirative, was backed and checked by a triumvirate of Divines.

One may argue, that in the case of an evil guild, this is perfectly conceivable. But if you push the reasonning further, evil guys are arguably agreed on something, only interested in gathering more power and trying to backstab their superior. Ultimately, even if a character is a crude selfish powerlusting bastard, it's no excuse for the player behind the character to stop to considerate the feelings of his fellow players


The individual feelings matter. You're _playing_ with those individuals.

I think the only way you could understand my point of view, is by playing a roleplaying game once , with real individuals of warm flesh and bones, standing close enough that you could sense their warmth and hear their overexcited giggles.

On your last point: Been there, done that.

On roleplay being consenual: Correct, it is.

On the church: I don't admire them, just the excommunication.

On the divine backing: I never said that wouldn't happen.

On evil: yes, evil does what evil wants. But evil also recognises who is more powerful and, if they aren't stupid, they'll recognise that they should do what they're told. If they don't they deserve to get this punishment, if they do? Hell, it took someone 4 days to finish the path I lead. Now I'll probably be a bit tougher on people but.. 4 days to have the freedom to do whatever the hell you want except going rogue?

Blah, blah, power corrupts. So does money, fame, lust, envy and a whole list of other things.

Notice my last ideas:
Guildmaster/Administrator (it would probably make more sense for the administrator to have the power) asks (demon) to strip person's pact. Person loses pact, can't repact that demon for one RL day (oh no) but can't have another pact stripped for an equal amount of time.

Alternative:
Gm/Admi asks demon.
Wait for god to notice.
Wait for god to notice.
God agrees, as demon, that person is abusing their powers.
- God strips pact until X requirement is fulfilled?
- God strips pact and person immediatly repacts?
- God strips ability to pact entirely?

Third Alternative:
Nihilist guild ingnores what the person did.
- Nihilist guild goes down in bad roleplay history.
Nihilist guild outguilds person.
- Nihilist guild has a rogue on their hands.
- Nihilist removes them from Magnagora.
- Person dies once to each person who can kill them and then sits around for 30 days unharrased.
- Person sits in Celest/Serenwilde and can't be touched.
- Nihilist guild still loses out.

I still really don't see how a pact with either a supernal or a demon lord could be used that it deserves to be stripped. it just gives afflictions after all. And if the Admins do not like theft, then let the admins deal with it or just explain to the individual that it is a .

If it's a roleplaying aim that you're trying to achieve then all the parties must be present and willing to participate.. it could be fun

Absolutely not. Good RP is consensual, yes, and by joining any group, you consent to RP as a member of that group. If the leaders of that group decide you're abusing your powers and screwing with group RP, then they strip you of those powers. By joining, you have already consented to this.

You can't join a group, then expect to get out of punishments because it's not in your RP. If a Moondancer started slaying fae, I'd fully expect us to outguild them, and them be outcitizened. They can then no longer summon fae. Would you rather the Nihilists kicked people out of Magnagora, or just stripped a pact for a while? Either way, the same purpose is acheived.

The problem Sylphas, is that you don't exploit your reasoning.

If the Group Rp is existing and good, that one wouldn't abuse the powers and screwing with Group Rp , in the first place.

Beside that, i'm still puzzled on what of "crime" one could do , that someone deserve to be stripped of his skills.

But if it is a for an Rp reason, like someone didn't uphold the virtues of the ethos of Shakiniel, per instance, then yeah all the parties must be present and not get some message written by the infamous (system).

Beside, most of us aren't sociopathic fools. If someone starts to bash fae and starts a diplomatic incident, then there must be a reason. And finally , no ingame skills could cure sociopathic fools.

Freya, I don't think they ever will understand. Or perhaps, they do not desire to understand? Either way, I surely hope the game developers keep such power out of the hands of the players.

Heh I love how the subject of this post changed so quickly

But anyway, I quite like the idea of guild leaders being able to strip pacts, it's nothing when you think that a leader could just kick said person out of the guild and city and would serve as a good RP punishment.

I don't have problems with thievery unless it's stealing from a novice or a newbie, which is really pathetic and annoys me to no end, luckily Adrihn is the only case the Nihilists have had so far that I'm aware of and we all know what happened with that.

Back on subject, the sensitivity hex stripping deafness is pretty useful, makes hexes more worth having.

Plenty of people have the ability to kick people out of the city, which completely screws someone's skills, and yet you're arguing that adding the ability to bestow a much lesser punishment is going to be wildly abused?

EDIT: So, back on topic. Hexes is made a bit more worth having by providing sensitivity, but that still doesn't put it anywhere near the usefulness of Tarot.

Just curious how can you hear with deafness when there is no mindseye tattoos in Lusternia? Sorry im still getting used to the combat system and am un-aware of how everything like enchantments and other changes work.

Eating faeleaf gives you blindness, deafness, and sixth sense. (The latter being the defence mindseye gave you.)

I thought it healed blindness and deafness not gave it to you. Oh well, sounds like I need some more faeleaf then.

It does both.

Heals blindness, deafness, then gives blind/deaf/sixth-sense (whatever)

However, I believe that if you've eaten faeleaf, then cured blind/feaf with health, you can't eat it again to get blind/deaf

It's rather complicated, but if I've got it correct, healing either the blindness or deafness will leave you with the other one and lose you sixth sense. (Not sure about faeleaf health.)

So it's like...
Normal State
EAT FAELEAF - Blind, Deaf, 6th Sense
APPLY HEALTH TO HEAD - Squat (cures head wounds I guess)
CURE ME HEALING - Waste a bit of mana

Blind/Deaf/6th Sense
EAT FAELEAF - Leaves you with (I think) deafness, cures blindness, removes 6th sense
APPLY HEALTH TO HEAD - Leaves you with (I think) deafness, cures blindness, removes 6th sense
CURE ME HEALING - Leaves you with (I think) deafness, cures blindness, removes 6th sense

'course, Gwylifar says it's a lot more complex than that, but I have no idea what he's on about most of the time, so just stick with that until I'm proved wrong. *cough*