As a rogue who plans to stay rogue for at least the short-term, I could imagine myself horrified if I were an enchanter or alchemist at the reality of not being able to practice my tradeskill if I were suddenly enemied from cities or the like. I think that it would be more fair to allow people who don't neccessarily want to practice their tradeskill in public to do it wherever they want. This would also be really cool IC for independent cartels who want to have their own equipment. The fact that you can make a private cartel should show what kind of direction we should be heading for private ownership of pentagrams and alembics.

The only thing I have to say, is that its evident from the start that in Lusternia your city/commune is important to you, the more we move to a point where its easier and easier to exist outside the city/commune the more people will just go rogue as fast as they can.

For Serenwilde's monopoly, bear in mind that will end when a new commune opens. The only reason they have a monopoly is because it would have taken too much time to implement a 4th city/commune with all its guilds. Plus it would spread thin the opening player base. I agree that it'd have been better for them not to open with a monopoly, the facts of reality made that impossible to do. But fear not, the monopoly will be ended eventually.

Yet in reality they do not have a true monopoly. Though yes, Bob's wares are inferior; he does provide a check against them going completely out of control.

Hopefully Bob will be gone then, once a new Commune opens up.

And I know I am going to be annoyed, because I resigned myself OOCly to the fact that it will be Glomdoring, and rather then being able to pick or choose which Celestians or Magnagorans to kill, based on which ones infuriate me, I'm going to be tossed into a constant conflict with a diametrically opposed group. Meh. I will have less time to focus on roleplay, and be tossed into more PK. I just hope it will be a long time in coming, so it'll be fun while it lasts.

When another commune comes thing the whole alchemy market will open up so I think people just need to be patient with the monopoly, for now.

Leave it as it is.

if there is no monopoly to protect, and this monopoly is due to some ..erm.. gameplay bug..since there is a missing commune then let loose the alembics.

What's the point then of debating if people should have or not their own alembics.

Arguing about whether or not people get an alembic is also moot. Having an alembic in a manse would not break the monopoly. If there was an active tradeban, eventually it'd catch wind of who was refilling from their manse, and it'd be disconnected from the Commune, and they would be ostracized, nullifying the Alchemy skillset. That 500 credit alembic would then be useless. Basically, if you bought an alembic, it'd make you much more likely not to try and beat the system, and sell illegally, because you'd have so much more to lose.

i am not worried anymore. Since this monopoly was not meant to be .. i'll stop arguing against it.. and i'm sure and confident that Anonymous/T..k, with his famous high morale and wisdom, and all the other serenwilders players as well, will not try to enforce a monopoly which was never meant to be.


edit: hmm.. no idea why i used infamous instead of famous

Simple solution: Make it so that alchemy doesn't require power from the mother tree

Yeah, I think the point of a private alembic is not having to be connected to a commune controlling your every elixir, so normal power, linked from astral or other players, would be fine to use your alembic.

I think Alembics would detract from the game if everyone was permitted the chance to purchase one. The world is based on conflict, note I said conflict not PK so don't jump on me, you have influence conflict, you have "good v.s. evil" conflict, you have order conflict, and you have the famous IRE conflict of one group having something the rest of the world does not.

Now in other IRE's rogues could throw a monkey wrench into that last part, but even here in Lusternia you can still have that happen. I know for a fact that elixers were being sold to Magnagora during the war. Granted not as many were, but it was obvious from watching that some were leaking out. That also promotes conflict. Internal conflict with the Commune(s).

Everybody who can't make elixers can complain all they want about how unfair it is that one group can only do this, but that is the way the world works. Heck even in real life you have one group that has something others can't produce.

Providing Alembics, or even Pentagrams as I think they should be only city allowed, would remove more balance in the game than it would provide.

Especially since we're not meant to have a monopoly, I can see no reason why both alembics and pentagrams shouldn't be allowed. Even if there is no real reason to buy one, why not sell them? It doesn't hurt anything, really.

I don't see why anyone can have a forge, but only cities can have pentagrams, or only communes alembics. What is so different about an alembic that makes individuals having them a problem? They're just a set of equipment, like an oven or a forge. The only reason I can see not to have them is because of game balance, and with Roark stating that a monopoly wasn't meant and won't last, that loses a lot of weight.

It would be nice if Alembic could be created in Manse, though it would make any bans even harder to be effective. Unless of course, those manse alembics could only be placed by Moondancers/Harstoners? Or at least certified by either alchemist group. I am not sure what is the fuss about monopoly, seeing how monopolies have always been a reality somewhere. Serenwilde can't produce enchantments, so we depend on either Celest and Magnagora for this. Serenwilde needed ways to defend/attack Magnagora? We undercut their elixir supply. Sounds reasonable to me, as long as bans are justified (no permanent bans). Same could be applicable by enchanters, of course if Magnagoran enchanters refused to work for Serenwilde we could always resort to Celest... In any case, if Glomdoring manages to become a commune, there would be a greater source of elixirs, so it would be harder to ban and the Manse alembics would further enhance the black market.

In any case, I think that both Alembic and Pentagrams should be allowed only if you are someone with forestal background (in order to have a certified manse Alembic) or a city dweller background (for a Pentagram manse).

I also believe that both pentagrams and alembics shouldn't be mantained that easy, meaning you purchase it and you have it forever. There should be a mantainance element involved. Allow me to give an example for the alembic. Alembics should probably have a Spirit Tree which should have a yearly upkeep, requiring the owner to purchase somekind of fertilzer for it (2k per package), and water it regularly, basically take care of it... or the tree rots and the manse alembic goes on stasis no longer functioning until a new tree is acquired. Something similar could function for pentagrams.

As for certifications, allowing the construction of alembics/pentagrams, either a representative of the alchemists/enchanters guild could inteview(?) the petitioner (the person who wants to build either things), and see if they are apt to possess either things. Or maybe a Minister of Development could oversee the any set procedures involving alembic/pentagram makings.

P.S. Maybe the two remaining cities (Gaudiguch/Halifax), instead of providing enchantments or elixirs as trades could produce something else. Something that could be of future use? (I am not sure why I even brought this up...)

You guys should start to know on which ground you are standing. I do not disagree with the arguments, i disagree to where it is leading.

The main concern is about the game balance of power, supposedly to be perfect.
But that's where it is funny, as hinted by Roark, but i'm going to exagerate it so it could be printed into the minds. The game is NOT balanced. So whoever is trying to keep this as it is.. is in fact working against the game best interest.

It's the same situation of a 300lbs full grown man wrestling with two little girls. Maybe serenwilders find it natural , to just flex some muscles and literally shut down the offensive ability of an entire city.. but no .. it's not natural.

The game is not balanced . at least admit it. Of course, it's not like Serenwilde is going to abuse and start to punch on the cities just for "giggles and kicks" but it still makes the cities nervous, and they can't Rp naturally with this huge Damocles sword above their head.

So don't try to preserve the supposedly perfect balance of the game, because not only it is not perfect... it is literally faulty.. without being dramatic , of course.

- I have never suggested, nor do I think it is necessary, for alchemy to be functional without having a connection to the proper nexus (only the Mother right now)

- I never suggested alchemists would buy their own alembics and be stupid enough to refill for commune enemies from a manse connected to Serenwilde. My suggestion was that someone like Richter would buy one, so he could get alchemists who were willing to take risks for big money to come refill at his place. You can't just disconnect it from the commune, and it would not be easy to police.

- I'd love to be patient and wait for another commune, but sadly, this monopoly colors a lot of political interaction. Bob not only sells inferior vials, but unless this was changed since I was last there, he doesn't sell all of the alchemical vials. Arguments that those vials aren't necessary, in a world based on conflict and especially during times of war, are toothless. They are absolutely necessary.

- The fact that another commune will come eventually (and despite Tuek's desires, might not be an instant permanent ally of Serenwilde) doesn't fix the current problem, but it might provide a disincentive to people considering an alembic.

- At the end of the day, reasons that buying an alembic would be stupid are NOT reasons to not allow alembics in the first place. People are allowed to make decisions that you don't see the logic in, and that they might even regret. Since it isn't intentended to be a permanent monopoly, AND given that the alchemist using the alembic must still have a connection to the Serenwilde nexus at present (meaning they are taking a serious risk, but guaranteed to be caught), I don't see any reason to not allow them.

Based on what Roark said, I think it would be a bad idea to sell alembics and pentagrams in a manse. This is purely for RP reasons.

Perhaps maybe, you should be allowed to buy an alembic, but this means you can NEVER have a connecton to a city Fulcrux portal roomthingy, and you can NEVER build a pentagram as well. Cosmic and Etheral magics should not be so closely connected. Also if you build a pentagram in you manse you will NEVER be allowed to be connected to a Commune and NEVER be allowed to build an alembic.... even if you swtich cities or what not. Your manse has now been defiled.

I think those types of conditions would be nice for players convienence and keep the RP alive and well.

Huh? The only reason I can see having both is if you're doing something like Richter is. Otherwise, there is no point to having both of them. What does it really matter if a Celestine buys an alembic? What the hell is he going to do with it? It's not like you could use both.

Theres many reasons I would want to have both or multiple things in my manse. Family, making money, renting rooms, opening a shop made for crafters and such.

And it really doesn't matter if you can't think of a reason of why you would or would not do it. The likelyhood is that if it is possible somebody will want to do it.

Many games have been destoryed because the designer said... "we don't have to worry about that, who in there right mind would try it!?"

I still don't see why that's a problem. There's no real reason why cities have pentagrams and communes have alembics, besides that being the way it's been. That's like saying a Paladin can't have potted plants in his manse, because he's not forestal, or that I can't have a painting of an angel because I'm not from Celest. I don't really see how they are really oppose each other. Granted, they use different types of magic, but I use cosmic magic every time I use a window enchantment, and that's perfectly fine.

I think some of you are missning a point here, and perhaps it is because I may be the only group to fall under that.

I'm not advocating that the power be changed or anything... Olan brought up a good point or two, which I'll explain further. You see, I have trans merchants of every type (except poisons, for the moment) in The Merchant's Guild. I want to walk into the manse, and be able to have any of them make thier own things in private. You think I like using Magnagora's forge?

Some reasons:
1. I like to keep my merchants happy, and ooc, I'm a pretty nice guy.
2. I'd like to be able to say, hey, alchemist, come over here and make me potions, don't worry about us going to Serenwilde.
3. Easy access, nice place to work in.

You see, I have serenwilde alchemists in my clan, though they shall remain annonymous. Like I said, I'm not advocating any kind of a change. I just want to be able to create these things. My dad isn't a master carpenter, with some company (or city), yet he built his own workbench and has tools. I know people that aren't affiliated with anyone, but have thier own chemistry things. Just like enchanting and alchemy. Unless a Divine made them, why can I not make one? Or buy one? My alchemists could come and feel free to use it any time they wanted.

I'm not really seeing the point of most of the arguments here. Not everyone has access to alchemy, so opening it up to anyone is fine. And, if Glomdoring comes out, and they have alchemy, then isn't it a moot point anyway?

As always, I and my friends provide cheap wares to the world.

Edit: Took me almost an hour to write that, as I was taking calls. What the hell is this about a "spirit tree" for alchemists? It's a bloody room with stuff in it. Quit making this harder than it needs to be. It's more of a yes or no, not "let's have restrictions on it!"

Right now, if I want to build a freaking airplane, and I have the money to do so, I'll go out and buy a hanger.

Just that I have to get others to build it.

Everyone: "Oooooh, he -does- have a point."

*nod me*