No, being quite silly is thinking that a huge, dynamic undertaking like Lusternia and the social interactions of all its players can be changed on a dime. This isn't a book or a movie or even a video game where you pull everything together and send it off to the audience to do with as they will.

You want to talk burnout, let's talk admin burnout. What do you think this guilt trip your trying to lay on Estarra and the rest of the design team is doing to do to their morale?

Speaking as someone who himself just pulled his considerable financial and professional support from a four-year project that touched hundreds of people, and did it because less than half a dozen of them could lift a finger to do anything but complain how it was constantly going to hell: You want to declare yourself free of any and all responsibility for your own happiness? Fine. But I won't be the one to absolve you.

I don't know how to explain this, but I'll try...

Admin burnout is a problem as much as much as Player burnout is. Would you say that Admin burnout is self imposed?

You can't fault players for complaining and not helping, because in reality, there is no way for a player to help.

We can offer ideas, that is all a player is able to do. The administration however, can code, make changes, and even influence the actions of players in game to lean in one direction or another.

Its not like Lusternia is a 100% free mud based soley on donations, and everybody is complaning but nobody is donating.

Sure some people are just misserable people and nothing will make them happy. But I don't think that is the case, otherwise Estarra would not have opened up the Topic for discussion.

Some problems can't be fixed on a dime, and you have to wait 6 months for the patch, but in these Dynamic online worlds, changes are expected to happen a bit faster than on other media. And the Lustennia team has proven how good of a job they do at that. Its unfortunate that the apparent fix that people want, has to wait for a better time.


And I don't know why you used Video games as an example, as those are generally the most actively worked on projects post production, as apposed to books which are only sometimes edited, and movies which once published are never touched again.

Repetition and a feeling of ongoing conflict where power-gaming is encouraged and the little guy gets stepped on by people who lvl'd quicker. That is what annoys me about Lusternia.

Don't get me wrong I love the game, I'd just like to see a bit less power-gaming.

I think some of you misunderstood the question of this topic, which was meant to address those players who feel burnt out from the constant conflict. Instead, there were several posts that were more of a wish list for new cities, communes and events, which really wasn't helpful for the type of input I was hoping for.

By the way, going back to an earlier comment about lengths of "event" quests, they really aren't designed for one person to do alone in a few hours but rather spread over days so everyone can participate. At least, that's my logic when looking at events.

I don't want to speak for Olan, but my suggestion for Glomdoring was not a wish, it is something I honestly believe would reduce the burnout level.

And since that is not possible, we offered other ways of getting the same basic results.

Exarius, while your complaints about complainers might apply to some, I don't see many of that sort in this thread. I'll admit that a portion of my burn-out is related to the fact that I don't have much in the way of social RP with a lot of people. That being said, I think there are some systemic problems in Lusternia that effect the lands and peoples in ways that may not have been fully realized at opening. As you can see, I tend to write long, detailed, reasoned posts supporting what I think the problems are and what possible solutions might do to help.

I've paid my money to play, and even those who haven't paid have a right to be heard. I'm not saying 'this game sucks' and leaving, nor am I saying that massive, massive changes that are otherwise unplanned need to be done: Really, my suggestions are about overcoming the fact that coding in the real solution is going to take quite a lot of time (but was planned from the get go) and I think something needs to be done to help player attrition rates in the meantime.

I imagine Estarra and the design team are pained when a lot of people aren't happy with something. In fact, since She started this thread, I'd say She's mighty concerned with what we see as the causes of (and solutions to) burn-out. If She thought it was all self-imposed, why would She ask you what you think?

Fact of the matter is, I don't want to play a game where I don't feel like I'm accomplishing something. I don't want to play where I feel the world is unfairly balanced, and not for a direct, intentional reason. I don't want to play in a world where the large scale political interactions are almost non-existent because of how our histories and positions are set up, and the shortage of powers with coincidental interests leaves a de facto alliance between two thirds of the world (politically speaking). And you know what? When Estarra wants our opinions, She'll read them here or ask;it is, in fact, a disservice to the game to dismiss Her concerns and pretend all is well.

/Edits

Daganev: Yes, we're on the same page. We aren't asking for features, and I thought my long description was reasonable to explain why I thought it would reduce burn out. Oh well.

Estarra: Personally, I don't think those items can be fully separated. I think the conflict is constant -because- of the limited interactions politically and the orientation of Serenwilde against the taint (especially when they aren't actually being 'against the cities' except that they are willing to betray allies at the drop of a hat). I think conflict happens -because- there is a political power that also holds a dominant economic position through alchemy, and they have it only because there hasn't been another commune. I think PK on the prime happens -because- that is where 90% of things we really care about exist (excepting only fae, supernals, demon lords, shrines).

As long as the world is constantly two against one, and especially when the RP and histories of each have them constantly opposed to each other (in Celest and Magnagora's case...Serenwilde's play on 'anti-city' is noted above) there will be conflict. I don't think it is a matter of 'get rid of troublemakers' or 'fix avenger' to reduce burn out...I really think it is a result of more systemic problems and complex political/economic factors that, while the system itself is built for complexity, is reduced to a bottleneck when there are only 3 actual power players.

My biggest burnout happened while Dumihru was still a Celestian. I actually enjoyed the conflict, even when on the losing side. However, it kind of became burnout when it the conflicts became so one-sided that the outcome of any battle was predetermined before it started. From talking to other people, this was partly due to the initial distribution of IRE/Closed-beta/PK-experienced players being far from balanced.

And that's probably not a design issue at all. It seems like it was just bad luck. It is just an example of how burnout seems to happen when players feel like, not only are they being beaten down at every turn, but they're falling farther into a hole that is due to factors that were beyond their control to begin with.

So I can kind of see where Magnagoran players are coming from. The alchemy monopoly does seem a bit one-sided. This is probably where Serenwilde players are coming from with complaints about totems vs. statues as well.

Some of the changes that have happened since (e.g. many of the influence changes - Thank you) have helped a lot. Also, the balances between the 3 major powers have evened out so that there is a lot more give and take.

While there are some random idiots who will attack people with about as much reason as there is in a snail's head, I don't think that the general conflict is currently out of hand.

My biggest frustrations currently stem from how the Avenger system, while excellent in premise, encourages a lot of meta-gaming in its current form. Two suggestions:

1) Don't conflict with influencing -- Now that Sanctuary is possible, it would make sense if uninfluenced villages were Avenger-free.

An example of meta-gaming in this scenario - Intentionally give suspect to all enemies, then influence under Crusade without fear of attack.

2) Be less stifling of RP-generated conflicts -- For example, flag people for X minutes after they leave enemy territory. Another example, allow people to defend for X of rooms outside of their village/city without being hit by the Avenger.

An example of meta-gaming in this scenario - Intentionally give Suspect to enemies, then purposely take actions just outside of an enemy village that would cause enemy characters to attack if their RP was not limited by fear of pacification from the Avenger.

Oh no no no no. I can just cancel out ever using the highways again, as overnight we will have the highwayman brigade pop up outside each of their respective villages. Keep the conflicts like that inside the villages, and let it remain there.

Estarra, not really sure if there is a simple or even any solution to the people getting burned out from the amount of conflict in Lusternia. If you change it one way, you will get people complaining they are bored with the lack of conflict. Keeping it as is will result in the people who are getting whooped around too much to burnout and leave. Over time I think you will have to make changes, as I believe eventually it will become like Achaean landmarking. During that month, most people in Mhaldor logged out just to avoid helping out. I've already seen people logging out as soon as a village opens, do it might spread widescale if steps aren't taken to avoid it down the line.

Personally, I like the village influencing system, and would work more on the other facets of the game that are causing the most burnouts.

I think village influencing is incomparable to landmarking for a number of reasons, but one thing that puzzles me is why people aren't using sanctuary as much. You can basically help with influencing villages without worrying about PK. Yet, from the times I looked around when villages were in play, I saw hardly anyone using it (or maybe I just didn't look at the right time).

I don't think You looked at the right time. During Estelbar, Titania, Gwylifar and I (really the only influencers for our team) used it extensively.

Heh maybe if certain Serens would pay attention and CF more people, others would be able to help *poke Serenwilder leadership*. Give me CF dagnabbit!

Hijack over.

Forgot to mention how, if someone has Estelbar or whatever village demesned, then sit in the sanctuaried room, steps out, re-activates demesne stuff, then steps into sanctuary room, we can't stop the effects.

Didn't someone test that unbreakable demesne thing and found a few spots where it actually can be broken from?

I just logged into the game for mail and saw the announce on reductions of xp loss due to PK and PK xp gain.

Anybody have a before and after amount? Like how much on adverage they used to lose vs what it is now?

If its big enough that should end about 80% of the complaints on PK right there. It should also stop the PK killers who were just attacking for quick xp gain with no care for RP reasons.

And if you are PK'd and the time to regain the lost xp isnt such a stinging choir anymore then people are less likely to complain about PK and not throw hissy fits when their head goes rolling.

I think it will actually increase PK as more people will be willing to fight if they know xp loss wont be so sever but at the same time reduce the amounts of complaints about it.

Which should have an effect on burnout rates due to combat fatigue. When people say they dont want to fight what they are saying is they dont want to lose a battle and then spend 4 or 5 hours on the gerbil-matic xp treadmill machine (patent pending) gaining it back.

" Gerbil-Matic. When you gotta get xp fast only the gerbil can get you there."

I remember Roark saying influencing wasn't intended to be such a blood-bath, so that's probably why Avenger is still active in it. Also, I dont think the ideal that's Avenger would stop doing his duty at our whim to battle for villages. *g*

However, OTC Pepto Bismal works wonders for burn out and other stomach-related symptoms/illnesses. It's really good when cold.

Don't want to get burned out? Just don't try so hard!

Don't spend 8 hours influencing every time a village rebels, don't raid Celest every seven minutes, and (take my word on this one!) don't try to undertake huge honours quests more than once a day or so. For the love of god, please don't. It got Visaeris, Valek, and nearly me...

Most of the posts here seem to be rather pk or repetition oriented. How about considering the social aspects? The admin don't really have to do anything.

Just have some city / guild organised-stuff. Like in Achaea, there were fashion shows (of course it's rather limited here due to design submission), parades, illusion competition, dance competition etc. Offer a few prizes and there'll be sure to be _some_ participators at least. Maybe throw in some food and drinks, and the non-participants can just ogle, eat and have fun.

And of course it would be nice if the 3 cities / city in disguise *duck* can come to a tacit agreement not to attack / raid during said events. Or maybe the role of the divine here could be to maggot anyone who raids during this event. (Nice dream, even if it probably won't come true.) I remember the time when a Celest city quiz was interrupted by a Magnagoran raiding party. Was funny at that time with the organiser throwing a mini-fit, but for larger events that involve more planning, would be really really nice to know that it won't be interrupted every few minutes by a raid. Or for say 30k power, a city will be able to empower their guards to a ridiculous extent for a couple of days once a year / every few years, so that even if people go raiding, they'll die to the guars.

I don't pretend to be a capable combatant, but I do remember the general feeling in during the Serenwilde-Magnagora war, so I'd like to comment on that. From what my character experienced, it wasn't the amount or type of pk'ing/death/questing that was burning me out, but rather the lack of any visible, practical goals. I would guess the same thing could be seen on the part of those who now work for Gloriana and Glomdoring, or the two cities. Its one thing to give and give or even die for a great cause or quest, win or lose. It's quite another to do the same and not really know why you are doing it, or worse, know that it is entirely for someone else's benefit.

To be honest, the worst thing about the war was the forums. There's nothing worse than having to log in and fight/quest/sit so much for your organization, then be broadly and unreasonably insulted on the forums. That's not something that can really be fixed, of course, but when there is the perception that everyone thinks your efforts are worthless, they begin to seem that way. I remember a slight encouragement from Lisaera really meant something to our depressed commune at the time.

Personally, and I know this isn't really what you're looking for, but I would like more things to do when I don't want to bash or fight. I am always disappointed when we have so many skills that appear mostly useful only in combat or particular situations. There are exceptions, of course, but I'd love to have some sort of guild-based activity that is not pure rp.

I would contest this. The history shows that Serenwild is not supposed to be a neutral balancer but rather was just as immoral "ends justify the means" society as Magnagora currently is. Celest can certainly decide to take that route. If they can destroy the taint through immoral means then why should they balk at it? So non of these societal attitudes in the three factions were designed by the game desgners but rather were designed by the players. Especially Serenwilde, which was made quite exlicitly in the history to have a dark streak in them that the current players voluntairily do not choose to utilize hardly ever.

So encouraging two cities (the hell do I care about their ideals) to team on a single other, forcing it to constantly fight on two fronts, is a viable and natural option, creating an environment where everyone can have some fun?