The immeadiate gain was, at the moment it was damaging the forest, we needed to deal with that whilst it was occuring, so we did, ever since we have been discussing to sort it out.

If it really makes you happy, you will probably find that later today the law gets repealed. But hell if people speaking in the forest caused an issue you can damn well bet we would ban it untill we could further investigate. The term is better to be safe than sorry.

EDIT: And I am the diplomat that actually pleads caution in the circle, I am the one that is very aware of the outcome of all of our choices, but that needed to be done. If Magnagorans can't understand that, then there is nothing we can do, because its obvious you would rather us let our forest be destroyed just so we don't happen to offend anybody. We had to act, it was the most sensible form of action whilst we investigated the situation. And I know for a fact that if a similar situation arose in Magnagora you would make exactly the same decision.

This is really starting to get to me. You people equate every decision that you do not like with "Bad Ar-pee". Do you even know what the word stands for anymore? Role Playing. You take a role, a persona, a representation of a living, breathing person, and you play it.

People, as a whole, are inherently stupid. They do things that make little or no sense, and leaders have a way of doing things deliberately biased, getting a bit of backlash, then talking it down. This is all very real. Its not bad roleplay at all.

In fact, it is a more difficult role to portray well, which I personally believe Merloch and Gregori (As seem to be the major people targetted by this thread) do quite exquisitely. They ought to be commended for fine roleplay for their decision, not berated by imbiciles on a forum.

Serenwilde is fickle, you must come to realise this. It is not that we are aimless, but that we are pragmatists and opertunists. As soon as a law, treaty, friendship, resource, or whatever, becomes a burden to us, or more gainful opertunities arise, we cast aside what we had for what we can get. This law specifically is surely something that will arise temporarily, and fade when other opertunities arise.

Our current (fading) bitter feelings towards Magnagora prevent us from engaging in any serious friendships with them, and thus, we engage Celest. Currently, the nature of the friendship between Celest and Serenwilde is more one of mutual leaving, at least on an official level. Some individuals chose to fight with the Celestians against the Magnagorans, for any number of reasons (each equally valid roleplay points).

Magnagora, by its very nature, does not bode well with friendships. It seeks subjects, slaves, thralls, not equals. This attitude is very prevalent, and Serenwilde can easily sense it. Serenwilde are individualists by nature, and seem historically (in both the sense of God-written history, and player driven recent history) bound to oppose anything that CLAIMS to restrict their freedom, regardless of its pragmatism.

Celest on the otherhand, while clearly having Imperial motivations, are less outwardly superior about it. They are, quite simply, more pleasant to be around for someone with a Serenwilder mindset. Serenwilde views them as the lost child, somewhat innocent in motivation yet capable of vile things if left to their own devices, but worthy of friendship if a mutually beneficial situation arises.

It is true that Celest gives less than they take in this relationship, and I assure you that is not unnoticed. This thread seems to refer only to the Moondancers as being representative of all Serenwilde. The Serenguard are quite naturally sceptical of the new laws, and the least bound to this "Friendship" relation. I cannot speak for the Hartstone, but I do not imagine that they are as ferverently anti-taint as the Moondancers.

I think that you will see further twists and turns in the Serenwilde allegiance, though you can CERTAINLY expect Serenwilde to be predispositioned towards Celest on an even greater level if Glomdoring returns, merely because Magnagora will likely try to cultivate them as allies (A situation I think ENTIRELY preposterous. Rowenna betrayed the Emporer and left the followers of the taint for dead, something I HOPE people will take into consideration. If you do not, you are hypocrites)

On a personal note, my opinion is that Serenwilde is totally screwed until Ackleberry returns anyway. We'll only get WORSE if Glomdoring returns, because the "Evil" forestals will go there, and we'll be left with the snugglies. Serenwilde is the fierce one, I truly think them more evil than Glomdoring.

Personally, I think that for a commune a powerful central government is a burden. Especially when issuing ridiculous laws like the lich law. BUT the lich law has foundations, because it emerged directly after the war. Meaning that the war effected the mentallity of the commune and general disposition towards Magnagora. Simply put, the war opened a door for people from Serenwilde to create a bias against Magnagora. Though, a point of notice should be... that even when the new laws seem to be aimed against Magnagora, in no way do they favor Celest. Both Celest and Magnagora are equal to suffer the consequences of whatever law they brake. True, Celest doesn't have liches, so this recent law doesn't affect them. But as I stated, the law exists thanks to Magnagora going violent against Serenwilde. Another war like the one we just lived, you will probably see people like Merloch continue leading the commune towards a greater bias.

Let me try to put it in a simple way what I mean.

Magnagora's war opened a door that allowed biases like Merloch's (who is a person in power)to affect the commune without much debate, because now there are reasons that could support the biasm generated.

Though, something in my opinion that is important to notice is... That both Celest and Magnagora are the same. Different faces of the same coin, both seek expansion, both care only for themselves and expand their ideologies. The only real different is their methods. Celest is more subtle, and Magnagora seems to be a bit more straightforward. But both of them in the end would probably want to have Serenwilde as vassals.

Edit: Suggestions to try prevent Serenwilde favouring the Light, or any city by that matter:

1) Stop involving Serenwilde in any kind of conflict. Conflicts will only cause Serenwilde to take a side.

2) Make a person who has more pro-Magnagora feelings raise to power. This person would probably end up abolishing any seemingly anti-Magnagoran laws. Of course, only if it is proven that there is no reason for the laws to exsist.

3)Make a person who feels indiffirent to both cities raise to power, someone who despite disapproving both cities still wishes to mantain strictly comercial ties. I think if this were the case, you would see a more objective commune with only personal favoritism affecting the judgement of the individuals.

Or Desdemona, we needed to immeadiately limit the threat to the commune, so implemented a restriction (not a law) to protect the forest whilst it was investigated.

Perhaps you should read all my comments again. I associate Bad RP with an event that was done by a person, that few if any people know the reasoning behind. When this all first happened, not many in the Serenwilde had any idea that it happened and assumed it was a divine driven event. The timing was poor (bad) and you can read the posts from YOUR OWN PEOPLE about their lack of understand as to why the forest spoke up now. You guys ran a ritual for the tainted Fae if I recall and I have yet to see the "Ritual for Fae was stupid RP thread". We do dislike bad RP, and I label this it as the timing was horrid and it went from being a divine event to being a "I had my own" event. If you have a war that just ended not long ago, both sides seemed to dislike said war, then don't whip out your own RP event against that city again.

Yes Thorgal I understand completely now.

Let me just reinterate something.

I have been discussing this issue purely on the Forums. In another thread the question was raised to the -divine- "Why Did you suddenly make the forests not like liches, when the Histories say nothing."

Why was this question asked to the -divine-? Because Gregori and Merloch implied to everybody, through this ooc forum, that they did not have a choice in the matter and where just doing what the forests told them to do.

Lets step back for a bit. Notice the original question that was asked to the Divine by other members of serenwilde on this ooc forum. The Bad RP that most people are talking bout, is the people who played the role of these "spirits." Because we have still yet to hear any logical explanation of why -now-, after thousands of years do some spirits not like liches.

The only explanation given so far is the forests inherently don't like liches. Well if they inherently don't like liches, why didn't they not like them before? And was this feeling of dislike felt -After- the war instead of during.

I would say to whomever feels they are suppose to play the role of the voice of reason and such a situation comes up again, that instead of making a post that says anybody who enters will be enemied and fined, how about doing the following: Write a post that says, "we have indication that Liches may be harming forests, in the meantime please do no enter the forests unless you would like to be enemied and fined." Try telling the truth to people, it helps.

I'm glad that we pushed this subject as much as we did, because otherwise a large amount of players would be mad at the administration for appearing to once again make the game world less pleasant for Magnagorans. Instead we can just laugh at some player's idiocy.

Because the Necromancy skill is now taint based or has to do with the taint, it could be said that the forest acted this way after the Moon Avatars were eaten by Gorgulu. Moon is one of the nature spirits of the Serenwilde and after having been touched by the taint nature reacts negatively to all things taint oriented. Lich form is tainted or whatnot. Trees dont like taint. It's just a possiblilty and I can see how Merloch would role-play it that way. I dont agree with it, but after the law was made someone could have tested it. Everyone forgets that we do not know if it someone personal RP or an actual event and therefor react in that way until we know.

Sensitive to the little amount of taint in a Liche but not to Viscanti, got it.

Necromancy, is not related to Nil.

Necromancy has more to do with Urlach than anything related to demon lords or Nil. There is just as much Taint in a Lich as there is in any other Magnagoran or magnagora based skill.

If indeed alleged "nature spirits" in Serenwilde hinted to an individual or two that they didn't like liches (though I'm far from convinced this is true but for the sake of argument let's say it is), why do you say this is bad RP or, more to the point, say that the only possible conclusion to draw is that the "event" is to push Serenwilde away from Magnagora.

If I were a player in Serenwilde who didn't agree with this anti-lich theory, I'd posit that the "forest spirits" of Serenwilde are sympathetic to their caretakers, i.e., the members of Serenwilde, especially Hartstone and Moondancers (historically the respective physical and spiritual caretakers of the forest). I'd suggest that, rather than the forest dictating our actions, the forest responds to our own predispositions, such is the nature of the bond between us. Thus, if certain caretakers hate liches, it is only logical that certain parts of the forest would sympathetically respond to that hatred. Depending on my own position and personality and feelings towards the anti-lich claimants, I may even go so far as to accuse them of polluting the forest with their own hatreds and prejudices.

Anyway, my point is that rather than feeling confined or pushed into RP that you don't feel comfortable with, there is no reason you can't be creative and stick to the RP path you've laid out for yourself. Who knows, maybe you'd find that "events" begin to respond to your RP.

Because I'm not as creative as you.

Lich just seemed so out of left field to me, when everything was focusing on Fae and Demon lords.

But that makes much more sense.

This is a very nice suggestion. I guess some of us just don't bother to actually influence the role-playing that affects a group as a whole. I know I don't... Though, I assume that by what I quoted, that the forest's are sentient, after all. So far, people from the commune do seem to react that way.

I have a question, out of topic but inspired by Estarra's post... Are there any "gods" playing Lusternia with mortal counterparts? I would really support Estarra for Seneschal, if she completely incarnated the mindset reflected above. It would make forestal guidance much more easier.

Edit: I agree with daganev. Maybe some of us aren't very creative, or only manage to ingeniate "creative" in a rare occasion. Or some don't really get involved deeply into the fantasy.

After being awake for a few hours, I realize my last post does not have the tone I intended.

I've been known for some crazy ideas, but I was greatly impressed by the outlook Estarra suggested. I've always been one that says, if the game history says its this way, thats the way it is in that world. I've never even thought of the idea of being open to an event to the degree in which people can be open to more philisophical theories, because usually, the admins have an idea, and they do it, and they don't really open themselves up to the possibility of poeple injecting their own ideas into that event.

For example, if Priest Of Nature A says that the trees fell way X, then there is no argument, they just feel that way, and you can't interpret their actions or statments to mean anything but what the Priest says.

Now that Estarra has opened up the possiblity that people can argue and dissagree with such things, it makes such events much more intresting, assuming charachters can convince other charachters of thier theories. And I'm very impressed by that.

I'd just like to point out that during the war, -no- Magnagoran's were allowed in the forest. Let alone undead ones sitting and chatting.

Ah well, doesn't really matter now I suppose. The law is revoked, score one for ooc convenience over roleplay.

magnagorans were not allowed in the forest, but many where there anyway, for long periods of time, and the spirits did not shout and yell. That was the point of that statement.

Necromancy is not related to Nil?



Necromancy does relate to Nil. It says so.

Leadership keeping their populace in the dark is perfectly acceptable roleplay. In fact, if you have a leadership that needs to completely justify its every decision to everyone, you have what we had under Nikua again. Of course, justifying yourself leads to more argument than not justifying yourself, so its smart leadership, and consistant roleplay. I personally would be horrified if Magnagora, for one, felt it neccesary to justify decisions it makes to any but the highest ranking of their citizens, and I believe Serenwilde is similar.

You apparently have never lived in the Serenwilde. All that happens is people argue and disagree with things. In fact I argued and disagreed with Merloch at the time that the "spirits" were getting angry about the liches. Gregori assumes when Merloch's lips are moving he is being a fanatic. Gregori dislikes blind fantacism almost as much as he dislikes cities.

Any "event" that makes Merloch's bias seem stronger only aggravates Gregori because, Gregori thinks if we make a law for one city, we make a law for both cities. If we ban people from using Taint for example, we ban people from Flooding a location.

We should not be against "light" and "taint" we should be against Cities, period. When the High Priestess of the Moondance Coven saved Lolly, she didn't say "let all the tainted people die." She said “With Celest gone, the last of the Empire will be too. The time for the ‘civilized’ age is at an end and we can go back to the purer time when the forest communes oversaw the healing of the Basin of Life.”

By our own history we hate Cities. Not Light or Taint, but cities. We have grounds for hating Light and Taint -because- of cities, but in the end it comes down to Forest = good, Cities = bad.

Consequently, Estarra's point was dead on what I was trying to say (in a way). You all need to think outside the square. You simultaneously complain about the "same old black-and-white stereotypical" outlooks while pushing those same outlooks.

We have a saying in the Serenguard, "How can you tell when a moondancer is bitching and moaning about nothing? His lips are moving."

At any rate, you're dead right about Serenwilde not -technically- opposing the Taint and Light though, though its a convenient political excuse and thus valid.

That's great. Heh.