Um, Thorgal, do you even read what is written? Or do you just jump in with is right and you're wrong!

I don't want Celest and Serenwilde to become allies in the current city situation. But its a little hard when the idealogical basis for all three organizations pushes us in that direction. Yes, we can rp completely unjustified dislike of each other, Elryn does this. But there will always be rational people who realize there isn't really any need for it.

By the relation of Dynara and Magnagora you mean the relation that seems to exsist between Creation (Dynara) and Destruction (Magnagora)? And how one being created why the other one destroyed giving way to the endless cycles of Live-Die, etc?

Though, I don't think the Taint is related to either of the mothers of creation. Instead, the Taint is connected to the Soulless (specifically Kethuru). And, in a sense, I am quite positive that the Taint -IS- a twisted version of the Light. Some points worthy of notice are that Kethuru seemingly banished himself of existance far from Lusternia. So Kethuru might as well be a force deep around Astral (maybe those metallic (souless) goats in Astral could be minions of Kethuru) , or the crystal/gem Ladantine found in Astral a link that somehow was connected to Kethuru. The interesting part of this all, is that when Ladantine first touched the crystal PURE LIGHT emmanated from it. But, then something happened that made the force change: a negative action, the goats attacking the party and suddenly the Pure Light darkenned... and causing the Taint, or better said dark power. Now, I have diverse hypothesis of what may have occured. The most relevant is the following. For starters, I am sure that Ladantine was merely searching for a greater power when he engaged on Cosmic Hope, something he found but was unnable to control. So, following this line, I believe that Ladantine's avarice started to corrupt the Light from the emmanation, while some other negative turn of events caused a this energy to link to Kethuru. This caused the energy, once pure light, to be completely imbued by Kethuru's will causing it to become corrupted, volatile therefore destructive. An almost exact representation of a Soulless God.

It was at this point, that this uncontrolled dark power started to corrupt whatever it touched and twist things. Maybe at this point, the dark power did become an entirely new force. Giving way to the probable conflict between Light and Taint. Both forces trying to shape things according to their nature and dominate. But, I still mantain, that the Light was corrupted by outside forces creating the Taint. Also, a point of notice. Even when the Taint at the begining caused the most destruction, thanks to Kethuru being behind it, majorly what the Taint did was created a "revolution". A drastic change that destroyed already existing things. Now, the current Taint, I believe that only the people who follow have the opportunity to portray the nature of the Taint, because the Taint no longer possess Kethuru's active will behind.

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On a Side note, I feel so tempted to provide a link to some feature MTG articles where the philosophies of the different colors, that are involved in the game represent. Especially regarding the colors of White, Black, and Green. Philosophies I believe loosely resemble the philosophies of Celest, Magnagora and Serenwilde, respectively. If you wish, go to the Magic webpage and look for the "In the Black" article and read for yourself. Maybe we could learn methods to dissect the Light and Taint more thorougly, inspired by those articles.

Oh, and in spirit of fictional Cosmogenics, just as recent and creative as Lusternia's (but completely not as deep), I would also suggest if people went to the Magic site and read the Iname story.

... I hope I don't get stoned for these lame suggestions. Just make sure you check them out, if you are curious.

Edit: Rephrased something regarding the articles I mentioned.

Interesting theories, and they fit well in the magic universe, but I think only Green, really fits well in the lusternia world.

For example, I think Celest would be a mixture of Blue and White more than just white.

In general, I find other world philosophies only usefull to a point, and normally that point is a a very superficial one.

I completely dissagree with you on what the Taint is in comparison to the Light.

I somewhat agree with Melanchthon, in his thoughst of it being the relationship between Dynara and Magnora.



When and where did he do this? He certainly didn't do it when the Last Nine seal him away. And I really don't think he was "banishing" himself in any way at all durring the Taint Wars. So please enlighten me on when Kethuru willingly banished himself.

Astral was essectially his prison, or, it was part of the force holding him back. When Ladantine connected to the crystal collum, I think that was him linking to a node upon the astral, and sending the energy he got back through into the Stone of Truth. The connection and draw from the node is what drew all the goats to them.

The breaking of the Astral barrier, and the linking to the node is, in my opinion, hwat enabled Kethuru to break free of what was holding him. He then correpted the node, transfering his own essence through it instead of the cosmic energy.

In this way, Kethuru was able to correct the Stone of Truth (creating the Megalith), and through that, spread his power outwards in the form of the Taint, corrupting both Shallamar and the Earth Plane.

Then, his power conttinued down, through and onto the prime. The Taint cloud then appeared there, and began turning it all just as Kethuru had turned the other two planes.

And so all the while, Kethuru himself was the Taint; the Taint was a manifestation of Kethuru. Just as he served Magnora to destroy all Dynara created, he continued his job, seeking to destory all of Lusternia. The transformations were him taking over, and making thinsg sutable to his purposes of destruction. When he was puched out of the cloud by the sealing off of the two cities and their planes, it was Kethuru's consciousness and being that was forced out. The Taint today is merely a "physical" leftover of Kethuru.

And so, the Taint's true goal is to destroy all things, just as Kethuru's goal is, as he was given by Magnora.

The Light's origins we do not know though. But from the Supernals we can derrive that the Light's goal is to have all under it, prospering by its ways, creating more life. Thus the two are set against each other. the Taint to continue what Magnora did, and the Light to continue Dynara.

Not able to withstand this great magick, Kethuru screamed in agony and rage just before he shimmered and disappeared from existence. So the last and mightiest of the Great Ones was imprisoned out of phase from the rest of Lusternia, always close but never able to touch its lands.

This was what gave me the impression that Kethuru had banished himself, either that or keep suffering on the hands of Avechna. You know, Kethuru forced to retreat, then later possibly be sealed off.

I do agree that the Light may represent an aspect of Dynara, but I believe the Taint represented the Soulless (even when the Soulless seemed to be quite similar to Magnagora).

Also, the crystal probably was a a link to a power node. A link to pure power, and somehow this transferring of power ended linking to Kethuru. You attribute the breaking of the Astral barrier to the process of suddenly linking to Kethuru. I merely attributed this to some negative action, wasn't sure to speculate what exactly. But the point is, that this link made Kethuru corrupt the original power and then pervade his will. In my opinion, my explenation is very close to yours. Meaning, that we both claim that at some point the node stopped emitting the pure energy but instead it emitted an energy that had been corrupted by Kethuru. This energy corrupted by Kethuru soon changed and became an own force. But the origin of the Taint is because it is an aberration of the Light, caused thanks to Kethuru. And from that point forward, the Taint expanded unleashing the series of events we read in histories. The Taint spreading corrupting everything (changing, and by change causes destruction, because to change you must first destroy it's original state). So in the end, the two forces did become independant, and one force mirrors the other causing the conflict between them.

I guess it's just a different way of looking at it, but I've always taken this to be him screaming out in agony as he was forced into imprisonment. Sortta like Ghostbusters; the ghosts would rage in agony was they were forced into the trap.



That is exactly what the Soulles represented. Once Magnora took them under her leadership, they went about doing her biding, because they are so perfect for it. The Soulless are what they are, because they lack any soul or spirit, and thus always consume, trying to gain something. They represented Magnora perfectly, for all they consumed became naught.




I agree that our views are similar, but they are also quite different. You are giving the Taint an existence aside from Kethuru before he was forced out of it. Untill the clashings of Gaudiguch and Hallifax, all things tainted (save the Emperor and his cohorts) were under the control of Kethuru. The Taint went out, changing the lands, and bringing more under the control of Kethuru, all to bring the world into Kethuru, and thus find destruction.

The taint was not a corruption of the light, but the Light was corrupted when Kethuru used the Taint to "take over" Shallamar. The Taint came from Kethuru himself, corrupting the Light, not Kuthuru corrupting the Light and creating the Taint from it.

anyone ever wonder why the Undead Emperor and his Dark Council were the only ones not under Kethuru's control?

Hm, no. I am not giving the Taint an existance aside from Kethuru, though I am trying to speculate as to what may have caused the Pure energy to suddenly link to Kethuru in the first place. I attributed this linking to the metallic goats attacking or Ladantine having greedy intentions to possess the Power, suddenly linking to Kethuru. You know, something like Ladantine suddenly corrupted his ownself by craving for the power he caught... creating an imbalance in the power eventually linking to Kethuru. So, whatever that was originlally emmanating from the node (Pure Energy), linked to Kethuru's will, probably providing a minimal door to escape infusing the Energy with his own will and thusly creating corrupt Energy. Corrupting everything it touched.

Another reason why I do not dare to connect the Taint to Magnagora is the following:

First of I view Yudhe as a matrix. Suddenly spawning Magnagora, which had nothing to destroy at that time, and then creating Dynara an entity oriented to creation. So, i my opinion, Dynara and Magnagora comprise a system. This system had some sense of order: create-destroy, alive-dead, etc.

Now, both elements that made up the system were connected to each other, each with their own function. At Dynara's first attempt to create a lifeform, she failed to create something proper, giving way to an anomaly. This anomaly came to be known as the Soulless but the system failed to eliminate it. Probably because one of it's functions considered them as similar to them. So, at that time the Soulless seemed to had become part of the system, though not meant to. Then came the nameless son, whom I believe was a catalyst for creating a more perfect life form, and also for conflict within the system. This caused the system to go into recession: when Dynara and Magnagora both leave to chase the spirit of the nameless son. At this point, I believe the system started to undergo a process of evolution that in the end would probably give form to Estarra. Though, during this period of recession, the system was out of function and keeping control. So this opens the chapter to the Elder Wars, at this point I can only speculate from nothing. Probably the anomaly within the system soon found itself completely lose threatening to destroy the lifeforms (Elder Gods, some sort of initiall programs?). So, in order to mantain some sort of cohesion, the most of the initial lifeforms broke down to different minor programs giving way to the mortal races.

So, at this time, the anomalies were free to run rampant corrupting/destroying all they could. Though, at this instance, the minor programs underwent their own evolution giving way to the Vernal Gods, a way to try correct the anomaly. But they failed, alone, so they had to fuse together to create a more powerful deterrent (Avechna) and finally managed to seal off (not destroy) the anomalies. This gave the opportunity for the further development of whatever remained: cities, people, etc.

This brings us to Celest Empire, a period of "peace". In this stage, some of the components of creation sought greater sources of power. Which lead way to the diverse projects seeking that power. In the end, during one of this projects, was when a connection to a Greater Power is established. But something went wrong during the process of extraction, creating a breach for the anomaly known as Kethuru to have access again to the components, resuming it's process of corrupting all the system of creation starting by corrupting the major force currently present at that time: the Light. Due to this, whatever ward had kept the anomaly seperate from the "whole" needed to be reinforced. Giving way to a Vernal God, and all that... where the Kethuru's will was stopped, but the damage had already been done: the system had become corrupt and that corruption becoming completely integrated in the system.

It is at this point, I think, that Estarra was liberated and began to serve as a program oriented to mantain the system's integrity by trying to prevent it's destruction.

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I am in a weird mood right now, hence my posting of the strange explenation of above..
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I am not sure why Ladantine and entourage didn't appear to be under Kethuru's control, but they did become infected by him. This probably caused them to become mavericks, being corrupted by Kethuru and thusly engaging on trying to obtain personal gain atop of everything. Though, to some extent, I think Kethuru used them as puppets a way to further create problems in case he was stopped.

The Soulless were created by Magnora, the Elder Gods were created by Dynara and the nameless son of Yudhe. The Taint is a part of creation just as much as the Light, and just as much as the Elder Gods.

Edit: Except for Estarra, I don't consider Estarra apart of the Elder Gods, because Estarra is part Yudhe, nameless son of Yudhe, Magnora, and Dynara, while the Elder Gods are a part of nameless son of Yudhe and Dynara. (Confirmation?)

Um, no. The Soulless were created by Dynara. Magnagora was all about destruction:

The Soulless Gods
Upon the worlds and planes that Dynara created, she also created life. Her first attempts to create life were monstrous abominations without a soul or spirit. Though at first she considered them to be her greatest triumphs, she came to view them as her greatest failures. They came to be called the Primal Gods or First Ones, also known as the Soulless Gods. Disappointed, Dynara sent these Soulless Gods to her sister Magnora for her to consume back to no-thing. But Magnora, bitter and barren, allowed them to live out of spite. Thus, the Soulless Gods became the Heralds of Magnora, traveling with her and helping her destroy and consume that which Dynara had abandoned or forgot.

As for the Elder Gods. the nameless son of Yudhe and Dynara created them:

This son was without name and form, limited in omniscience yet full of potency. The son of Yudhe went first to his sister Dynara, and through him, she understood how to create life with soul, and so together they created life from shards of their own consciousness. She and her nameless brother grouped them this way and that way, and played with them as children play with their toys.

This gives me the impression that either the Elder Gods were considered toys for the two Yudhes (). Or that they treated the Elder Gods as clay giving them whatever shape they wanted.

And in a way, when the Elder Gods might've been created from small shards of Nameless and Dynara's consciousness, I think they are not connected to Yudhe as their creators. This because Yudhe himself didn't spawn them. In my opinion, Estarra is an amalgam of Yudhe's previous creation: The dynamic forces of Creation and Destruction, along with Yudhe's essence being the Nameless, with the duty to mantain preservation. But Estarra is seperate from the Elder Gods. As for Yudhe... I am not sure if he would be a way of saying Universe, and he could probably be hidden somewhere or be All and be on an unconsciouss state. I say this because in Cosmogenesis, it says Yudhe fell silent.

Edit: Though after reading the description of Yudhe of being basically nothing concrete: not light nor dark, etc... Maybe Yudhe is another way to say space soup, or void... or simply the things from which everything originated. Uhh....

Oh, some would say that the greatest form of destruction is Oblivion, so I would probably say Magnagora is that, after reading more carefully about her.


Another way to view Yudhe: He is what right now you could consider God to be. The architect of everything. First created Chaos (Magnagora) then giving Order (Dynara) and from those two creation underwent the process of being.

Maybe I should refrain myself from talking about Cosmogenesis...