Yes, I'm sure you kept count on a sheet of paper. I sincerely hope you aren't gonna start sounding like Shiro, you know better than that.

Name one skill in Necromancy aside from Lichdom, Ectoplasm and Omen that has any use in a fight.

Breathe contagion is nice. Though I don't think anyone is arguing that necromancy isn't weak on the offense.

Contagion? Do you NEED anything other than those, considering how strong they are?

Who wouldn't trade all of those for judge or inquisition though?

Why the hell are you bitching about necromancy being too damaging now? You never die to a single necromancer, are you even trying to remain credible? I don't want to personally attack you but...don't just post in rage, think a little.

Wait, so Thorgal, he can't argue against something if he loses to it, because "he's only bitching about what he can't beat", but he can't argue against something if he doesn't lose to it, because that's not remaining credible, because it's obviously bad if he beats it? I'm not following your logic.

Shiri, the offense necromancy and sacraments offer are not comparable, unlike Amaru and everyone else that is bitching about it, I had BOTH. Necromancy never gets used in the amount sacraments gets used in either offense or defense.

Contagion was good, but most people don't fight one on one, and that makes contagion useless, as it'd hit the first non-Lich in the room, which is most likely going to be a Magnagoran.

Personally, I have to say I find this topic altogether annoying, one because yes, it does affect me, and two, it's just wrong. Wanting to downgrade a skillset that is, in general, already sub-par on several accounts is just like kicking a dead dog for kicks and jollies.

So, lets go over the skills in it a bit.

Carrion - I think this is one of the few skills in the set that is decent. It's actually the only one I really get to use and guess what...it’s not for battle; it's for food, and a VERY early on skill. Just a bit sad.

Omen - It only works for a short while, seconds in time, really, nothing as scarring or permanent as say, dilute, which can nerf your healing dramatically with one move by ruining your health/mana/bromides vial...UNLESS YOU EMPTY THEM AND GET THEM REFILLED! That is likely to happen during a fight, yes?

Putrefaction - After the downgrade, unless you have a semi-high level or preferably better, it hurts you more than actually helps you, it seems. I've been in fights against people, on Tainted land as a viscanti, with enchantments up, sipping, and it not really helping much. I prefer to fight without it, in fact, because I lose that much extra health per round, when a Nihilist already starts out not-so-great defense wise.

Ectoplasm - it works on EVERYONE but you in the room, so, not smart to use unless fighting 1 on 1, and ectoplasm wears off after awhile as another downgrade.

Contagion - it hits allies, too, plus the recent downgrade.

Raisedead - Worthless, in all honesty, save roleplay. Lovely if you want a ghoul or skeleton walking about, with some chance it might attack it's likeness if you are into irony, but not much help.

Ghost - You can SEE ghosts if you look, there are skills so you can ATTACK ghosts, eye sigils stop them, and you keep afflictions you had before ghosting. Not to mention the severe willpower drain to do it, and the fact you can't do much else while a ghost.

Crucify - They can writhe out of it faster than we do much with it. However, it was helped in the fact you cannot apply the arnica while on it - which you can do at leisure instead, while we're recovering balance from casting the darn thing once you writhe off.

Sacrifice - goes with Crucify. Pretty much impossible to pull off, because no real fighter is going to get crucified, stay on it, and get all their limbs broken, or, even if you break all their limbs first, and THEN crucify, you don't get the power to pull it off fast enough before they can get out again.

And finally, the big whopper. Lichdom.

All I can say is, I don't like the skill, at all, either. Mainly because I dislike have negative stats for the greater part of the day (Since Daytime has more time than night does) and the fact it takes 20 power, and eye sigil can keep you from escaping while you wait to lich....where you then come back with no power, or defense, and off balance.

Plus, it can be stripped! So much for the people who can use it to get away.

I'm sure anyone else would love it though. Your enemy gets to spend 20 power to become an easy target, as long as you have enough pocket change and sense to buy an eye sigil before you fight.

Did I mention, for the few people who don't know, that Lichdom is our TRANS skill?

***

That being said, Perhaps Amaru will now explain his own skills, like, how they don't need to be at half mana AND bound, or need someone with all 4 limbs broken AND stuck up on a big ole cross. Or how they can stack trueheal, as well? I'm looking forward to seeing that, at least.

Well, you know how in Achaea/Aetolia, the necromancers had Soulcage/blackwind, which spawned hundreds of posts complaining about it? Well in Achaea, they changed it, so that you could only Soulcage, once per real life day, was it? Aetolia is still the same. Soulcage was never overpowered, and neither was blackwind, however it was the combination of the two that was unbalanced.

In Imperian they got it right. They took away Soulcage from the Necromancers, and gave it to the Devotion-users, in the form of redemption (50% devotion cost, ouch, and you couldn't be bloodsworn with redemption active). This balanced things. The necromancers had blackwind to still escape, and the devotion users couldn't really use redemption effectively since they didn't have much fleeing abilities, so it wasn't powerful in their hands.

The problem I see with Lich, is that it is basically Soulcage combined with blackwind all in one, and that itself was always a messed up combination.

In Imperian, they had the ability of reanimate (for the new Transcendent necromancy skill, however they have gotten another transcendent skill since). This was basically the same thing as resurrection (as in you use it on another), only it resurrected you as undead (with no experience loss, not just a reduced loss like resurrection), with I believe, increased constitution, increased strength, and a little less intelligence. However, if you died while undead, your corpse disappeared and you couldn't be reanimated again (This is where the concept of not allowing those who are already a lich to put the lich defense back up comes from, so basically you die half as many times, since you only suffer a real death once.) This really did help to balance things out.

And as for necromancy here, some arguments have merit, some do not. Omen is an awesome ability, you can basically eliminate someone from combat in group combat nigh instantly. Many people say crucify sucks. If that is so, I wonder why it is always the opening move against me when I am teamed by a group. Having a temporary permanent anorexia and slickness till I writhe off isn't that bad, so I believe the problem moreso lies with sacrifice, not crucify, though crucify could stand to have it's power reduced, because 8 power is ridiculous, so I'd say 5.

I feel Ur'Guard are in fact the best of the Warrior archetypes, followed by Paladins, and then trailing far behind is the Serenguard. If you look at what I feel the warrior role fills as in the mechanics of Lusternia, they are the classes that can take and receive the most damage, as well as the classes that can deliver the most damage.

Ur'Guard beat the other two hands down, with highest strength native race (Viscanti), the most bonuses to strength (Able to reach 22 strength) and able to deliver the most damage via omen. They also get putrefaction/cannibalize to handle the damage, and Lichdom/Ghost to allow for an almost guaranteed escape.

So the arguments isn't comparing Celestines to Ur'Guard, no you cannot compare different archetypes, you must compare archetype to archetype. You must compare Ur'Guard to Paladins and Serenguard, and Celestines to Nihilists and Moondancers.

You should have tossed Moondancers in there, since you were comparing instant kills.

Moondancers - Toadcurse, no reason you should die to it, I just use it to make people run away, like Daevos.

Don't forget Celestines and Nihilists have access to Soulless... I dream of soulless. So yep, we get one instant kill which is by far the worse, Nihilists get a possible of 3, and Celestines get a possible of 3.

Well, you should toadcurse people in a river, or have an icewall ring. Since you can leap and climb into trees to get away.

Even if I have an icewall ring, which I do, so let's say I put up 6 icewalls, all they have to do is ignite at least one, which I have to put up again, and if even one icewall is down when you get cursed, the entire possibility of killing you is nonexistant. There is NO reason why you should die to toadcurse.

There is also one other huge disadvantage to toadcurse...

Edit: And this topic is about Necromancy/Lich. I'd rather you reply or comment on my previous post about necromancy, not my adding to Jello. Also, Toadcurse is much more difficult then Wrack.

You can't glance, so you may not know which one you ignited or what exits (it happened to me). The disadvantage to toadcurse is that it doesn't kill the person right away, but the rest of your skills makes up for it (A Moondancer should rarely if ever die if they choose healing, but then they might not be able to be as offensive, and would just whore aeon (Narsrim)). Celestines and Moondancers are a step up from Nihilists, but not by much.

The thing with Paladins is they look very good on paper, and in fact, they are. They even do very well with internal Celestian spars. The reason they're completely sub-par is that they only fight Magnagorans, and the vast majority of them have Putrefaction, making physical damage a moot point.

Wait, you mean you can't...just...write some script that memorises which icewall you melted, if you can't do it yourself? Or run in every direction real quick? Neither can be that hard, especially the second which even I could do, and I can't script or anything.

No, its because I can't name 4 Paladins who have fought in the past month. The Paladin Champion hides in Celest, and the Squires I see bashing that are a part of the Celestian army don't even fight back when I phantom them.

Tarielenwe, Kurachi, Kurama, Shinza. There you go.

They've never once defended a village before, except Shinza who happened to be at Delport, but didn't come to fight me, it was all Serens and Wuylinfe who did.