Given that a Nihilist enchanter with Tarot can blow up monolith sigils, they can get away easily too. Take Thorgal! He's so annoying to fight because he hermits as much as I spore. As for a Moondancer with bedevil (i.e. me), I am seriously lacking in the offensive as a result. If someone can cure aeon really well, chances are I'm screwed. Dark Moon might as well be considered a prank by Roark *peer* I tested Heretic with Infidel earlier. I got 8 afflictions for a total power cost of 6p. Dark Moon takes 8p and averages 3 (which always seems to include really crappy afflictions like paranoia).

Anyhoo, back to necromancy and lichdom. No more Moondancer hate.

I think Soulcage got the Nerfstick in other games, at least in one.

When you die to lich, sure, reborn, that's great, give the person that killed you experience, make you lose 25% every time you die with lich, regardless of level. That keeps it overpowered to the point of Kill you you come back and kill me, but maybe if I killed the lich first, the XP would balance out, less whining.

Umm.... were you smoking crack when you wrote this?

This is a rather widespread misconception about Lichdom. It actually hurts your ability to hunt, even factoring in the null experience loss associated with careful use.

The mistake lies in the somewhat understandable assumption that not losing experience when dying will cause you to gain it faster than otherwise. This ignores the general penalties associated with lichdom, which become more and more important the less you are in the habit of falling prey to your own prey.

You will note that as both a Nihilist and an ur'Guard, the only two guilds with access to Lichdom, I haven't used it while hunting for several years. In fact, it is still my habit to purposely die in order to remove it -- and I gladly take the experience loss to get rid of it.

If you would like to argue that I am mistaken in it's effectiveness, I am quite willing to hear your reasoning.

I forgot to point out the Bonecrushers and Sacrifice. A Bonecrusher Ur'Guard, with their insane ability to keep people off balance for lengthy periods of time, coupled with ectoplasm, coupled with contagion giving rigormortis and scabies, I don't see why it should even be that difficult. The problem is, people use it (Crucify) as an opening move, that isn't going to do anything untill you have them set up a bit.

I agree that for you this could certainly be the case; however, at lower levels, lichdom really helps out. Many people die quite a bit "learning" to bash effectively and when all those deaths are null, it adds up in the end. And... a Brood Viscanti with highmagic can get 22 str at night. During the day this is 16... even so... this is -still- really high considering that 12 is average. For a super basher like yourself, I see your point but I think with regards to the general populace, lichdom helps -far more- than it hurts.

I think the point is that all these arguments are circumstancial. In some circumstances Lich kicks booty, in some situations it sucks donkey carrots.

Lichdom kicks far more booty than it sucks donkey carrots. That's the point.

Well, I started on Astral at level 65 as a Mugwump, definitely one of the most frail races up there considering constitution and fire/lighting weakness, didn't buy my first credits until 79, and stayed a Mugwump Nihilist up till 90. I don't really think it's skill or being a super basher, it's just being careful and patient.

If the great strength of Lichdom for hunting is to make up for reckless mistakes...it just seems easier to me to stop making them, and keep your better stats.

I just wanted to address this particular point because it's something I hear quite often. Several of your other points are very valid.

You can't compare the other games with Lusternia. Besides, the reason i have come to Lusternia , is because it is not like , or not trying to be like the other games.

As for Necromancy, I admit it's ugly and not particularly exciting, but once you have it, you must admit that it's efficient, so i don't see why some guys want to trade it for something else.

At any rate, the healing and ressurecting potential of celest and serenwilde is uncontestably superior to Magnagora's.

And none of the arguments of this thread, have convinced me of some existing major unbalance on the unique resurrecting skill that Magnagora has got.

Yeah lichdom is rather good, I feel sorry for geomancers who only have vitae.

my point i was trying to make is that lichdom being the trans skill of necromancy which is for the most part a defensive skillset, shouldn't be nerfed or downgraded at all. People compare it to other realms necromancy which in achaea is also an offensive skillset.

Leave it as it is, because without lichdom in its current form necromancy is hardly worth learning!

Its not cool that you are calling for the nerf stick without offering an alternative changes or upgrade to something else. Necromancy should at LEAST have leprosy that can be done off balance if you are going to nerf lichdom. Even if you give us decay which takes one arm balance, or something for a bit more variety, or being able to swing while off crucify EQ would also make up for a nerfed lichdom

As far as the strength issue, I believe that Strength increases your deepwounds damage moreso that overall damage, as tested by Valek unless i'm wrong which is a possibility. I know I dont do too much more damage from viscanti 21 str (its only 22str with fortuna, 23 if you add a divine favour and 24 for a heroes feast) to my current form as a non-undead dracnari 16 str with the same flails.

EDIT: Morslade uses a couple of very high speed and good damage flails, I wont reveal the excact stats becuase he may not that info divulged, but I forged them in my hunt for the perfect flails. He's an exception to the rule for most bonecrushers who are either viscanti or a slow balance race like tae'dae or whatever. I'm Dracnari because of the extra hp (I hate bashing) I can't keep someone off balance for long periods of time enough to crucify and sacrafice them, especially VS guardians who can totally shut down your defence with tarot +angel/demon. Moondancers are almost impossible to hit as well if you're fighting them in forest with vines entangle, eventually you get behind on healing, and whatever afflictions you manage to land they bedevil you with.

Vines is identical to a Web tattoo, doesn't even stack, and has the same equilibrium time. By your logic, anyone with a web tattoo should be able to shut down your offense.

Understandable, but I disagree. It's so very easy to bounce back from death when at lower levels. Lichdom is annoying, as on the whole it detracts from our hunting ability. Take for example Llexyn, whom I took with me on Capricorn..She died like three times to goats but stil gained about 2-3 levels in just a couple hours. Even if she could lich, that woulnd't help too much, especially with conglutinate.

Narsrim, Leech and Amissio both drain the same amount, at the same speed. The only difference is that Leech gives the caster a bit more mana back, atleast know the skills before you comment. The hangman shackles combo can be countered by that ability that burns ropes or whatever away from you. Shrivel is pointless. Ectoplasm is good, but completely countered by an enchantment, Contagion..just move out of the room.

Well, something is fishy then. Sudoxe can tear my mana in half with leech easily yet Amaru has never gotten close. I suspect that there might be a difference then is Nihilist amissio versus Celestine amissio.

Something to note, Furrikins have roll which is extremely fast (1 second delay and boom you are out of the room). If you are a Furrikin and tumble, it will be at this same speed. If you change races, tumble will be super slow compared. I can only imagine something similar is at work here. Roark would know.

Hmm, maybe you used your mana too excessively or your vials were still diluted? When I fought Sudoxe with Surge, yeah, my mana was being drained much faster than I could heal, but without surge, I had no problem with amissio or leech.

That seems more likely. From my logs (and a couple of the forum logs), amissio and leech are sapping exactly the same amount of mana (300+10%).

Well, leech should drain more mana than amissio. Not a lot more... but it should be better than the standard.

Um, why should it? 300 + .1(maxmana) is pretty good already, and if they're getting some of those mana back, I don't see a point as to why it should be better than the standard amissio.

Because its a special skill in Necromancy, not a prequisite.