You can't definte "combat zones" properly. Try it and see.

Definition: Enemy property, enemy org-property, enemy villages, or uninfluenced villages

And any area that is part of an event that requires unrestricted pk in it as defined by the admins.

So people sit one room outside of a village and hop in to kill weaklings, then run back out when bigger fighters arrive. Annoying as all hell I assure you in advance.

Defiling shrines -definatly- has to be counted as an action you can't take.

I've played numerous muds where I have seen "safe zones" and "combat zones". Those do not need to be defined as those titles, but for the sake of simplicity, I will call them that. If you initiate combat in say Acknor, and see Ethelon (sorry, grabbing a random name) walk into the area. You think, "oh crap, I can't fight him."...you try and leave. When you try and leave the village the visage of Avechna appears blocking your path, saying "You have initated violence Mortal, you must wait a bit longer before I can let you pass." Basically you are barred from leaving that area for a set amount of time after you have initiated combat against someone, which will also block teleport-like skills from getting you out. Then if you attack Joe Nobody, his bigger buddies have a chance to beat the snot out of you for doing so.

Thorgal has made a great deal of sense throughout this thread, and most of it stems from aiming at the underlying reasons for 'bad' PK rather than focusing on the behaviour itself.

You can spend the rest of your life making game rules and coding to curb 'bad' PK, but the sum of it is that you are trying to affect a shadow. It simply doesn't work, nor will it ever. To change a shadow, you change what is casting it.

So, what allows 'bad' PK to happen? Deep down, the playerbase accepts it. People do it, and...and what? A few polls open up on the forums? A few high profile names get divine punishment?

Blah.

If you want to change this, Magnagora, Celest, and Serenwilde just need to make a document spelling out what exactly constitutes a state of war, a military target, and sanctioned killing...and then agree to punish people who murder citizens on the Prime just like they would if the murder had happened between their own citizens.

Role-play has the potential to fix every problem.

Role-play occurs from the top down, rather than the bottom up.

Give players a crutch, and they will use it, and never think to walk without it.

If you doubt that, count how many replies to this thread just consider that proverbial crutch, and what shiny new one would be a better replacement to help them walk with.

What if I'm Magnagoran and hate what Celest picks a a jusitified kill? Their people still kill me and I think it is total BS. My game experience is still roasted, and there has been no solution from my end. If there was a blanketwide/worldwide solution, then everyone is protected equally and not hoping that the other cities are morally correct in their defining of rightful PK.

I keep debating whether or not it's worthwhile to reply to posts like these. In the end, I'll just offer you my own crutch, to add to your collection.

Call it a crutch if you will, but you are basing your argument on players abilities to RP in a good way. Many of us can, but the minority are the ones who are screwing it up for everyone else. I have no doubt that some people would abide by these city regulations, but some would just find loopholes around them or try to get some fool elected as their city leader. We have all seen idiots become city leaders in our mudding histories, and know how much damage they can cause. However, if you make something enforceable or protected by the game itself, it is quite hard to get around that.

I have seen too many things rely on the RP of the players, and it never seems to work out in the end. Look at the race areas that opened up, as they were obliterated by people for the sake of bashing. Look at the people who are using statues on the highways, or those who demense the entire roadway and kill at random. You can complain or point to crutches all you want, but those wanting them are not to blame. You don't need a crutch UNLESS there is already an injury.

I'm still a newbie so pvp is not something I've had any experience with. However, after reading the posts here I really had to vote no on this.

There is a general agreement that the proposed solution is too abuseable, and would require many other conditions to make it workable. Just on principle, a solution that requires numerous caveats would suggest that its a solution that is not addressing the real problem.

Most people here seem to agree that killing for 'real' roleplay reasons is not a problem, and I don't think we would want a system that prevents that. I do not believe that just because someone chooses to play a pacifist character (which I normally do) they should be immune from pk.

The problem then, is how to stop 'random' or 'senseless' pk. It would seem to me that the first step here would be to remove any ooc reason to do it. i.e. remove any ooc benefits from killing someone.

What if:
There is no exp gain from killing someone. There is a reduced (or no) experience loss from being killed by someone else.

There are still ic reasons to kill someone if they are interfering with quests or whatever - but if they're not - there's no reason to kill them.

Discalimer:
I'm not familiar enough with the game mechanics to know if this would have other side effects, but I think the principle of removing any ooc incentives for randomly killing people is the right direction.

Well, not acting on something you know is wrong is tacit approval, and as for not needing a crutch, I completely agree.

If the playerbase was incapable of an RP solution (shame on us!), then that is about the best ooc thing you can do.

The only point I'd emphasize is that you never want to have anything resembling no penalty for dying.

I like the idea of having no XP gain for killing someone. Should somewhat reduce killing so that is is done for mainly RP reasons.

Agreed, I'd prefer to see an in-game solution if possible.

Yes, you're probably right, if anything the penalty for dying is probably not enough at the moment - it should be something feared - without being something that stops you from playing the character.

On the otherhand, when I first joined Achaea I died a number of times just trying to work out how the game worked - maybe there are certain classes of death (
Hmm, this is heading away from the original topic though...
*shuts up*

I am just thankful that we don't loose our entire inventory when we die like in other muds.



Hmm just as a side thought. In Avalon the First Age the Necromancers had this skill called VIOLATE,

If you weren't wearing a cross they could take one item off your dead body.

I agree with Melanchthon on this point only: having no drawback to death and killing won't help stop unnecessary pk. Think of it like making the prime plane an arena. I believe it would in fact dramatically increase the willingness of poorly-motivated combat - if you have nothing to lose, why not give it a go anyway?

Having said that, I don't believe either player or divine monitoring methods are the best solution either. I'm sticking with my suggestion

I like how experience gained was reduced for PK already - I agree though, it should be taken away entirely, unless you kill an enemy in enemy territory at the time - and even then, it should be minute what you gain.

Just within today, I've had people try to jump me, for the simple fact I'm ranked in the top 60's, so, I'd be decent EXP. Granted, Bricriu the character can also be rather snotty at times and likes to slip in quiet (or not) insults, which could give reason. However, the ones she are insulting aren't the ones jumping her.

I've seen other people jump poor Melanchthon, just because he is ranked number 1, and MUST be worth oodles of the experience stuff. Considering how little aggression I've ever seen him put out, it is just ridiculous. I've never even seen him yell, much less be nasty to anyone to the point they'd attempt to kill him for it.

Boooo for the awful RP'ers who are only here for PK.

Wooot! I need to jump Melanchthon!

Yeah, and those muds suck in a big way.

PS (primarily to Melancthon): If you remove all pk gain/loss you'll see a massive decline in RP instantly. People who think they are outmatched will just sit and not cure, since they won't lose anything if they lose. Fights will mean nothing at all.

Consider this as well: The only ways to attack somebody would be via issues. Is a MUSH with issues what you really want?