When I was a Geomancer, I started off as this:


When I became a Nihilist, I bought 40 credits, used them in Necromancy (Which is the Arcana pool), and went to:




I juggled discipline and Highmagic, along with those 40 credits. I'm 70% Mythical Nihilism, and I'd be trans Necromancy, except that the highfavour that raised me from Master to Gifted tossed my Necromancy to 0% mythical instead of Transcendant when I learnt to it. I still cant say I'd mind it toned down a little, even if that is an incredibly fair way of doing things, even with my 40 credit injection.

I don't think the main argument here is Mage to Guardian archetype judging by Devris' situation, but uhm... nice input?

You didn't even really switch lessonpools.

I know, heh, but still, if you can retain most of your skills like that even with reasonably similar classes, why tone it down? Its right as is.

Obviously you missed my first post.

In fact, your whole situation is pretty fruitless. You only lost 25%, which is a few lessons off from Mythical on its own. It isn't like you had to work hard to attain the skill rank you have as a Nihilist.

So does anyone see the bias I've presented? Warriors have -one- safe skill and the rest gets nerfed to poo, which I'm assuming is what Devris had in mind when he voiced his opinion. In any Melee to Spirit/Mind transfer you lose nearly two-thirds your lessons. Maybe it looks pretty on paper, but $105 (300 credits) to $45 (It was 675 lessons, and I set it at the 40 cent value. It's barely $40 ($39.37) if you'd like me to set it at the 35 cent value of the 300 credits) compared to $105 (300 credits) to $78.75 (225 credits set at 35 cent each. 25% loss, by the way) seems off balance per Transcendent skill. That's a $60 loss per Transcendent Melee skill you switch to another pool.

Go Mage or Guardian for the better bang for your buck?

Blar, I did miss the first one. But I'll say it again, it seems reasonable anyway. 25% is good enough. 50% was a bugger in other IRE games, but you could work around it. The 25% seems just right - you cant remember anything, and it seems a reasonable amount of things to forget.

Sorry, edited my above post after you submitted yours.

And it's 25% then the 50%.

Yeah, warriors get absolutely taken to the woodshed should we choose to change classes as KidHendrix said.

Is it just me that sees in the IC sense in someone who has spent there life practicing brute strength and athletic skill switching to using purely magic having to make a BIG sacrifice.

Yes and no.

Unfortunately in RL, I have yet been able to cast magic (one day though!) and don't get the opportunity to pick up a pair of swords on a daily basis. I can however (looking at occupations) be able to discern some of the things done in others jobs, without actually working the job itself. So as a warrior, I expect to make some sacrifice, but living in the realms for years, I would have picked up a little on the skills used by the non-warrior types. Just watching them and such. There should be a penalty, but losing 75% of the lesson to move my two combat skills out is bordering on horrid. Moving from a mage class (pure magic type) to the specialized classes (Nihilists for example) is just about as bad. It's a totally different type of magic and it also includes skills that the Mage types would have no earthly clue about. All three archetypes are vastly different.

If you want to go purely RP, then yes it is great. I'm looking at it from both RP and game mechanics, which is really keeping a lot of warriors from switching class. I know a few in game who want to switch as well, but the cost is just way too high to do so. Even knocking off the 25% to make it a straight 50% to move from warriors to another archetype is better than the 75%.

Even non-warriors though, it may be a bit high for them. Some of the other MUDS started out really high, and have now come down drastically. Achaea, the perennial credit eater, has come down dramatically in what is lost by changing guilds.

That's a good point, I didn't know it was 25% and then the 50%. I thought it was 50% total

Taking away 75% (62.5%?) from changing warriors seems a bit much.

The other aspect of it, is that people will not switch warrior classes, and so if there is a true unbalance, to the point that people want to switch, the loss is enough that they won't switch.

However, I still think there should be some other system in place to not give people such a large incentive to switch cities instead of just switching guilds.

Yeah, the lesson loss to go from warrior to guardian/mage or from guardian/mage to warrior, is 62.5%...in achaea it's 10%, but after reaching class there, it's 50%, the heavy cost in Lusternia makes a lot of RP sense, but I think it can be toned down easily without killing that RP. For example:

-Have forgetting a skill into the pool cause a 15% loss.

-Moving lessons between sisterpools cause a 10% loss.

-Have dropping lessons into the root cause a 25% loss.

That way, going from a physical class to a magical class still costs a lot more than staying in a magical one, but at least it won't completely cripple you anymore.

I like it.

If that is the only solution, so be it. (yes I know it is just an idea)


But...

You are looking at Mage class and the Guardian type classes as being nearly the same. I'd like to say that I think going from Mage type to the Guardian type should be just as crippling as Warrior to either of the two. I'll use the example of the Geomancers going to the Nihilists.

None of their skills match up (if I remember right) so they obviously don't share the same kind of knowledge. They come from two SEPERATE planes, with the Nihilists help file even saying they are like Priests of the Taint (or something, I'm logged off currently). Nihilism is nothing like Geomancy, so while they may be looked upon as being magical based, they are in no way related. If you FORGET a skill, from an RP perspective, you are forgetting everything you learned in that skill up to that point. You go from, "I am a master swordsman", to "I don't know how to use this sword.". If I have forgotten all knowledge, then going from the one class to the other should be flat identical across the board. You are already penalized enough to go from a Str based class to an INT based class. Many of the older folks who are crippled by changing have used their reincarnation, so we are gonna be at a severe disadvantage anyhow (barring you aren't Viscanti or the special races).

I understand the RP perspective on why it is crippling to go from warrior to other, but I could easily argue it the other way as well. I don't carry any knowledge of the old skills when I FORGET them, so unless you are going to let me keep a few...make it straight across the board to change class to class. Set it at like 50% for everyone.

Very, very good point. Of course, the danger then is people changing every day, but that can be internally regulated, I think

Both Guardians and Mages are magic based, which you yourself stated. In that respect they are far more simular then Warriors are to either of them. Just because I forgot Geomancy, doesn't mean I forgot the basics of magic itself.

Prove it! You forgot Geomancy, and before you took another skillset...could you cast magic at all?

They are magic based, but very, VERY different magic based. Just like in old school AD&D...when priests prayed for magic and mages memorized spells. If you read fantasy novels, they usually are distrustful of each others set of magic. Not to mention that many times, if you are from the opposite school of magic, like Aquamancers/Geomancers, you can't cast the other school.

If we are going for realism, going from Geomancy to Aquamancy or Nihilist to Celestine should be extremely destructive as well. You are casting aside everything you learned to follow the path that is DIRECTLY opposite to you. The guild transfer of lessons can be argued 500 different directions, so you might as well just even it across the board.

Take a look at your skill tree, you'll see Cosmic and Elementalism come from Planar. That means they are both children of the same family.

As for going from say Geomancy to Aquamancy, they are enemies from a player perspective, not as far as the planes are concerned(not that the planes have a mind to think with..) They both are part of Elementalism so you only lose the last bit of what you learned, not the basics. Just like a warrior that switches from Bonecrusher to Blademaster still knows the basics of how to use weapons.

I know they do, I guess what I'm saying is why?

They seem to have very little in common other than being magical in nature.

I guess my problem is the command FORGET..which I assumed mean forget. As in you don't recall anything from what you once knew. Once I forget blademaster, I'm just as inept with my blade as any mage now. But yet I still get penalized more to move to another class. If there were some benefit additionally with it, then perhaps it would make more sense to me. But in my own mind, which I may be on my own here, by forgetting you leave behind what you once were. I have no better knowledge than a mage who quits their class or a guardian who quits their class.

From an RP point of view, I see more probable (and thus, should be encouraged by not such a big loss of lessons) changing from one guild inside your city to another than going to the opposite city.
For example, you're a paladin but you find out you need to be more connected to the spirits/demons/supernals of your city (you find you mystical inner self). But as the lesson lose is now, you'll find more people going from one side to the opposite of the espectre (from Celest to Magnagora) than just remaining in their own city, with the same beliefs, just a different aproach.

Of course, to compensate for this system of losing lessons, you have class at gr1 and can go rogue at no cost (while in achaea you had to get to gr3). That discourages many people from even working for the guild, as the guild has nothing to offer to you, and people more centered in getting cityfavours, wich give you fancy influence skills and a chance to look good infront of much more people (and besides, if you're ever outguilded you don't have to worry, as long as the city keeps you citizened).