Thats where the lesson pools come in. When you FORGET something, you forget the specifics but still remember the basics. To change to a different lesson pool means forgetting those basics aswell, which is why the extra lesson loss is there. For people who switch between simular classes, the loss is lower then other places by far. Warriors and Mages or Warriors and Guardians are just two completely different concepts. Where magic derived from the planes, even if they are different types of planes, is still magic from the planes.

I can't argue that.

Basically though, if you made a warrior from the beginning and now want to change..you are screwed? 75%(62% whatever) is a bit steep even for going from class to class like that. It seems to me this just encourages the making of alts for those who get bored of warriors, but those who have invested money already just have to play a class they don't want anymore or make an alt and lose that already spent.

I'd like a more hardline system like Achaea, with maybe a bit more of for warriors to move...but 75% is just a total arse kicking. Everyone that I talked to who left warriors is like the voice of doom for it, basically spouting "Don't do it, you lose WAY too much." But obviously I'm on an island by myself in this fight.

i do think there needs to be a change...i know people who are completely miserable in their guild but cannot switch because they cannot afford losing so many lessons...

But it makes more sense in role that changing from a paladin to a serenguard or ur'guard should be easier, hell you are basically the same class, with some spiritual differences, yes you need to learn your new spiritual connection but the mechanics part of your skillset is exactly the same.

The opposite is true within the city, the spiritual part (Rituals or Totems) is the same no matter where you go, its just the mechanics part of your skillset that change.

I think what could be said is:

You instantly forget all knowledge of one skill. How much more realistic is that than being able to instantly learn another?

I think the point you're all missing the OOC cost for all of this. You'll notice that characters who've switched and even bought credits again (Thorgal for one) know how steep the change can be. I don't know how many of you work, get credits from family, or don't buy credits, but to lose $60 per Transcendent skill compared to mages/guardians losing about $26.25 (See one of my previous posts) isn't balance AT ALL. Game mechanics I agree, but credits are not made in game (No, buying credits on market doesn't count. Bardic/Artist contests don't count, Guides don't count, because it doesn't have the same availablility.).

It's a huge bias. You all are looking at the loss of lessons (Which I neatly scribed down) from an IC point, but each time someone like Devris decides "I want to enjoy the game more. Maybe I'll roleplay my character becoming a Nihilist!" but loses a similiar chunk of real money as he did lessons, while Mr. Mage to Guardian gets Three free Mythical skills from Transcendent... which archetype are you more inclined to play?

So we now have to balance for people choosing to spend their money? It costs you exactly the same amount to to omni trans any class, if you start changing things around after spending that money, thats your own choice.

If you think a 62.5% loss ($$$ and lessons) compared to a 25% loss is balanced...

The lesson pools should be adjusted or the lesson loss should be. I understand the whole "I'm a big bulky warrior! ROAR!" and then they transform into "Water at my side nothing can stop me!" should require a lesson loss, but the ratio is messed up. It's relatively cheaper to enjoy the game more by starting as a Mage/Guardian and omni-transing your Guild Skills (I really don't give damn about other skills since the topic didn't require that.) then deciding you want to switch than the former.

Forgetting a skill is forgetting a skill. No one is arguing that. It's the way the lesson pools kill your lessons and demand that you purchase credits, while as a Mage/Guardian its like.. "Meh." No one wants to go from Tri-Transcendent to a third of that, nor should they have to if the other guilds don't need to risk that option.

But that doesn't address that its your choice to change class. You don't have to waste your money if you want to change class, its your choice, you are aware before the change that you will loose the lessons, its not like its a big suprise they don't inform you about.

No one is telling you, you must change guild once you omni trans, but if you choose to do it, you should accept those consequences, you know that if you start out as a warrior you are going to struggle to change to anything but another warrior, but if you are planning on changing class alot, I suggest you do it as a novice, when you get everything back.

I think that the warrior/other one loss should be cut down a bit, or at least evened out with the mage/guardian loss. Because well...yeah, they're both magic, but they're completely different schools of magic. Warriors are entirely self-learned, so to speak, mages summon a little help from other planes (elementalism) and also have their own magics (runes/illusions), whereas the guardian archetypes draw FAR more from the other planes. It's not just "magic" all lumped together, as far as I see it, it's the source of your learning. Changing from throwing rocks at people to battering them with umbrellas shouldn't be any harder to learn than changing from gobbing in people's bottles to convincing those damnable stubborn pixies to shoot people.

I mean, they should both be evened out. I'm on the side of reducing it, but at least make it more similar. The whole "mind/body/spirit" thing should just be reshuffled in general, so the guardian stuff goes mainly in spirit, the mage stuff in mind, and the warrior stuff in body. I mean, more so.

Just like no one told the Mage "Don't the Guardians look more appealing to you?" and they said "Yeah!" and tada! Switched. The only difference is that the mage has no reason to bitch about it. Yrael spent $20 after juggling some skills around and was content, and that he didn't even have to do.

All I'm saying is it needs to be toned down. Some of us like to use our money to our advantage in other aspects of life.

Everyone is paying for the same thing. Why aren't they getting the same treatment? (OOCly, not ICly. We've already covered the bulky man to mage/guardian, which still doesn't appeal to me since everyone forgets the same.)

Hrm, looking at the skillset for going to a mage from guardian, lesse, trans skill in geomancy is break staff, and trans skill in illusions is reality.

2 perfectly useless trans skills, I can handle being a mage with mythical on both of those, supersling is a must though.

In the early days I went from nihilist with hexes (ew) to a warrior. The good thing was i could keep necromancy and not even forget it. The bad thing was that I took a big lesson loss on the other 2 skills (I was omni-trans) after buying credits here and there, I am still not omni-trans, but I'm getting close.

I did remember it as being bloody expensive, and it was painful but at the end of the day i'm much better as a warrior than a nihilist, and much happier too.

EDIT: looking at the illusions skillset, the top 3 skills are damn near useless, I was thinking about going mage from nihilist but now im glad i didn't.

Another point in defense of Lusternia's system is that we also wanted players able to 'tweak' their characters with minimal lesson loss. In other words, the design helps a warrior to switch from blademaster to bonecrusher, or a nihilist to switch from hexes to tarot. Indeed, schedule permitting, we hope to open a few more skillchoice selections throughout the year.

In any IRE game, or most roleplaying games really, players are generally discouraged from making profound changes to their profession. This should not be a light or painless decision; otherwise, you'd have everyone jumping guilds at the drop of a hat. One of the purposes of the novice freshman system, where players can hop around from guild to guild at no lesson loss, is to allow beginners to shop around for the profession that they would most be happy with to start.

Well, maybe so, but it still shouldn't be one-sided in terms of guardians/mages being rifted from warriors. That's what I think, anyway.

Maybe have a stacking system:

First time you change guilds, 25% loss
Second, 50%
Third, 75%

I think we could all be happy with that.

Right, but that's why the roleplay of the other guild should dictate that as well. In this situation though, since the system is built this way, it encourages betrayal and guild jumping between the same archetype (Which in essence is the same thing as a profound change in their roleplay/profession). So it is okay for me to keep my talent of the blade, but walk away from the Supernals to the Great Spirits or to Necromancy? It seems perfectly fine to be purified by the Light, but in not such a way that it forces you to learn different things?

Either way... it's still very biased against the warrior archetype. A Geomancer could literally forget all of his training and become a Celestine at a much smaller loss than a Serenguard could forget their training and becoming a Moondancer. It's the same roleplay, if we're looking at it from the sense that "I'm here to protect Mother Moon and Serenwilde!" rather than the former of forgetting the taint and joining the Light (Which I suppose is feasible since we had many turncoats so far).

It has its use when using the system it was built for (As Estarra said about specialization changes.), but when two archetypes are centered around the same pools and another is singled out the intentions seem rather skewed.

Oh, I agree, you don't want them changing guilds at the drop of a hat. But isn't it also important for people to be happy with the product put before them? We aren't saying we should lose zero to change, but right now warriors get absolutely massacred to make the change. I understand the basis behind it that they are non-magical, the other classes are magical, etc. I have already put out my opinion that those two magical bases are totally different, so I really don't see how it is a horrid difference from warriors. They are each three distinct archetypes, yet warriors are the only ones who get utterly demolished when changing.

Other IRE realms do discourage it, but like I posted before, even Achaea (which seems to eat credits from people like candy) went to a much smaller system of changing guilds. I don't think you will have a massive problem with guild jumpin g as it will even out in the end, I've seen people jump to all 3 in Magnagora as it stands.

As far as having the novice period to change, those who started way from the beginning(myself included), got promoted rather quickly. And even during that period you don't have full take over what skills the class actually has going for it.

If this stands true, put the Guardians and Mages in different lessonpools then. Everyone chose their guild, and I have yet to meet the person that before choosing class said.."Hmmm, now when I change I'm going to lose this much of skills to move from warrior". Some of us picked on a whim, and should have just as much right to change as those in the other classes. Instead you have people who have lost most of their power, and have slowly faded from the game instead of playing their character anymore. If the choice is be unhappy and play, or lose 62% of my lessons to play another class...I might just slowly fade into oblivion as losing my money isn't very appealing to me. You aren't going to get quality RP from people who are playing classes in a very disgruntled state, and they usually are very detrimental to the guild.

Heck, tack a disclaimer onto the bottom of warriors in the intro. *IF YOU CHANGE FROM THIS CLASS LATER ON, YOU WILL LOSE 62% of LESSONS*

But is this really accurate of a Serenguard with Stag going to Hartstone? Or a Serenguard with Moon going Moondancer? Or a Paladin with Sacraments going Celestine? Or an ur'Guard with Necromancy going Nihilist?

A Moondancer who switches to Hartstone or vice versa barely looses any lessons.

Edit: *sigh* Esterra already proved my point