I see a lot of arguements about how this change would affect PK. There is at least one other aspect of the game that the Karma system would affect. That aspect is questing and the individuals who have thrown off bashing and pk to do things such as quest and influence. As it stands now, there's plenty of competition between those that I would lable 'questers'. Many of these people do not bash or bash minimally and do not PK (they'd rather not be killed while questing and stay out of it). This Karma system and the fact that one way to gain Karma is through quests will essentially make the competition to complete quests even more difficult, forcing people who are now 'questers' to find other ways to gain experience and gold. Why should they be forced to find something else to do so that PKers can get Karma? I do hope if this system is implemented, that there are plans to release -many- more quests to supplement the rise in competition this system will cause.

If you bother to go back and read some of my posts, you'll understand why I thought your post was funny in that it completely ignores what I've said several times--which is that no matter how many systems or gimmicks you put in to make PK on other planes more attractive, this will not stop those who like to PK on the prime for the sake of PKing on the prime. Its absurd to think human nature will suddenly change with your pollyanna attitude that if we re-do the planes (forgetting the fact that this could conceivably take many months and hold up other projects we have scheduled) no one will kill on the prime or it will mysteriously drop to unnoticed levels. If you really think that, you don't understand the human psychology or motivation. I'll say no more on the matter.

Also, I find it amusing to hear that some think it is a "minority of loudmouthed people" who complain about too much PK on these forums--when to these eyes the loudest and most prolifically posting minority are those people who complain against any change that may curb PK.

In any event, I have been closely studying the evolution of Lusternia from opening and indeed it has been the prolific PK that is the number one reason that our playerbase has dipped. You may or may not agree with this assessment but it is the one that I have reached. As an anecdotal example, I was overseeing part of the adder event in the Skarch when somone for absolutely no reason attacked and killed another who was trying simply to figure out the adder quest. While I can see how this may give Lusternia an environment of danger, I think there is simply not enough repercussions to PK. Thus, it is with an eye to this assessment that Lusternia shall develop. Working on the planes may be part of the answer but it will never address the root issue, and however loudly you proclaim that it is the only answer will not change this fact.

Oh, you may have guessed that I am a fan of the karma system, but do you really think I've told you everything about the design.....

I hope that attacking/killing villagers effects the amount of karma your killers lose as well as how many victims you have.

You misread me - it's log in to Narsrim+Tuek+random Celestians raiding Magnagoran villages. I wouldn't care if Magnagora were raiding (it's not required to raid - it's somewhat required to defend)

I vote for karma system, and that attacking loyals (to anything) lowers your karma.

Currently there is no reason to be fighting anywhere but Prime except during raids, which only occur when one side looks through who is online and sees that they have a clear advantage.

There's nothing to fight for off Prime, compared to villages on Prime. Sure people would fight more off Prime since there would be something to fight -for- up there.

Since you don't like my EXP idea, and I do like your Karma idea, my only question is... When will it be implemented?

I do believe that once again you are missing the point entirely.

Some people have an urge to find someone, and kill them. Thus being able to say Mock mock, and gaining exp from the event. When you have that urge, the other planes are great places to find people alone, and defenceless.

The point is to curb non RP killing, not to curb Killing.

For example, last night I killed someone who stopped me from having a conversation with my IC fiance, (I bring this up again because I don't have any other examples). If the Karma system was in, I doubt it would stop me from attacking them because it was to prove a point, and I would have had to suffer the concesquences of finding a cure to my curse. But atleast the point was made.

However, if I had not reason to kill them, and just wanted to be mean and gain exp, I doubt I would since I don't want to waste time healing my curse.

My impression was that the intention was to reduce PK on Prime. People will fight no matter what system you put in, so the best alternative is to take it off Prime. However there is no reason at all to fight off Prime currently.

Addendum:

NOBODY fights for EXP. PK experience is utter crap and every fighter knows it. People fight because it is -fun-. IRE games have the most complex and -fun- fighting systems of any MUDs.

Read Estarra's posts again. Yes the idea is to reduce PK on Prime, but its not to move the Pk to another plane.

Read all Her posts together, and you will see it has to do with stopping a certain TYPE of killing more than killing in a certain LOCATION.

When we have our current situation -

Narsrim logs in. Narsrim calls his ents and defs up. Narsrim goes to Angkrag, starts killing miners. Narsrim spores out when Magnagorans come. Narsrim goes to take dwarves to the Holy Shrine of Klangratch.

Celestians go destroy sigils in Angkrag, kill guards, go to Holy Shrine of Klangratch.

Kill kill, kill kill kill kill kill.

::bored::

Create City Armies, they are "pk players". Most of the PK is still limited to raiders and such and if you designate people who say "I will joing the army" as pkable, people will start targetting them more. You will still have your random idiot, but no matter what system you put in, you will have your random idiot.

However if Tuek or Narsrim are part of Serenwilde's army, and Ravin and Yrael are part of Maganagoras. They are saying "I am a pk player come and try to kill me" and identifying themselves as open season. In fact if you put in an army system, make it so they have no avenger protection so peacing cannot be abused, or barring that make it so that Peace is not applied to "soldiers" and suspect status is 1/3rd that of a "non-soldier"

i.e Tuek kills Ravin, suspect for 10 months. Tuek kills Ravin again. Vengeance no peace.

Tuek kills random Magnagoran walking down the road. Suspect 30 months. Tuek kills him again, Vengance with peace.

This way you are curbing the wayward PK, but encouraging a more PK lifestyle for those that want it.

I will say this again and again...

I hate the Pk Flag idea in any form.

My charachter would be forced to join the army, that does not mean I'm willing to be targeted as a pker everytime I leave the city.

Soldiers are given leave once in a while you know.

I don't like the "pk flag" much myself, but as it is you walk with a permanent PK flag now anyways. Any thing put in will effectively be a pk flag, this just allows those that PK a means to keep it more among a select group instead of running out killing everyone.

The karma idea is not a pk flag system.

Its a simple cause and effect, single event equalizer.

And no, right now I am able to avoid combat with words and politics, and engage in fights with words and politics. Karma makes that fight between people all that more interesting because they know retrobution is comming if they kill too many people, rather than just if they kill me too many times.

Well, I understand better now, with Dagy's explanation added, improving the planes will decrease the RP-killing in Prime and move it to the Planes, since there is now reason to fight, but it won't decrease the random killing, since they don't do it for any reason anyway, except for shitz 'n giggles.

Just because you can avoid a fight with wits and charm, does not alter the fact you walk with a PK flag. What stops Gregori from smoking too much weed one night, saying "Daganev must die 10 times every 30 months. 5000 coins to each person that kills him.", and then watching death sight as 10 people hunt you. 30 days later 10 people hunt you again?

The whole system of PK Careful, Suspect, Vengeance, is a form of PK flag.

Tuek is on my suspect list, I am PK Careful, he now is considered by me as non pkable. In other words flagged.

Tuek is no longer on suspect list, he is now considered by me PKable. In other words flagged.

The only thing the army system does is as I said, takes what is already in game and alters the consequences of PKing people.

If Magnagora has no army, than Daevos is doing something wrong as both Celest and Serenwilde have one. Daganev would be forced to join the army whether it was an RP function or a game feature. The only difference is you are a little more free in PK when fighting someone from another army.

Daevos may very well order everyone to join the army, but you know 10,000 gold is not hard to raise and if Daevos is forcing everyone to join he will find that he has a city in riot fairly quickly. Daevos does not strike me as a complete idiot though.

Nobody would force Daganev to join the army except for my own RP.

You are missing the point.

I'm wondering if the karma system will have any benefit at all for those who may have lowered their karma, for whatever reason. The "benefit" may be something odd, demented, or whatever. I'm thinking of the classic TradeWars 2002 game, where you had alignment points and those who were high enough could purchase the very nice Imperial Starship with lots of fighters, shields, and holds. Those who were low enough were able to do other interesting things, such as cloaking their ship or purchasing more mines than typically allowed for their sectors. Another example is that in Achaea, those who are Infamous become open PK and there is no (issuable) penalty for killing an Infamous person if you are Infamous yourself.

Yes you get the added benefit of walking around with lots of curses and being your City's Village idiot.