What I find most ironic is that you guys even have all these rituals that you love to brandish.

The main difference between High magic (cosmic/elemental) and Low magic (nature) is the stated fact that highmagic is highly ritual while lowmagic is more intutive and inate.

You shouldn't need rituals, you should be having peronalized services and more intutive "discussions" and "explorations" instead of these set rituals that evoke specific images.
Low magic is invoke, highmagic is evoke.

Personally I avoid the word "ritual" and stick to "rite". The difference is more quantitative. Is an amerind rain dance a ritual? It's certainly not highmagic-like, but it's entirely appropriate to lowmagic. The difference is not whether a bunch of people get together and do stuff in sequence; the difference is the stuff they do.

The Elemental Planes are purified versions of their Elements, you might say that the Ethereal Plane is all the Elements mixed together with the "Nature Element" and that the Prime is all five mixed together.

Therefore, I see no problem with the rooms themselves, though as Patron of the Moondancers I would be happy to talk to them about it if it is brought to Me.

Of course, I might remove all traces of the four Elements from the surrounding area and see whether they really think it's such a good idea...

It has nothing to do with either High Magic or Low Magic. The use of rites/rituals in the case of Moondancers is related to Moon and covens.

Just because Highmagic is called 'highly ritualized' does not mean at all that practicioners of Lowmagic shouldn't have rituals. Look in the Histories, Rowena and the Night Coven did equinox rituals. So saying that the Modern Day Moondance Coven shouldn't, isn't right.

Also, invoke and evoke both have the similar meaning of conjure. So your thoughts on the differences of the words mean nothing to what the situtation is about.

Again, I'm not suggesting wiping all traces of elemental philosophy from Serenwilde. I just think there are better shrines we could use, as that is essentially what the four rooms are.

Why not devote them instead to the changing seasons? Not only is that more in line with Lusternia's separation of 'natural' forces to 'pure' forces, it is referenced in Low Magic abilities.

Low magic is considered the "natural magic" which involves the studies of auras and the energies that make up life. According to the Help file. Auras can be considered the lifeforce fought to be found in every being, and the energies that make up life could include the elements. Like said, elements where thought to be the componets that made everything in the universe. You could probably say, that every element are the "energies" that make up life. If the Moondancers are the "human" connection between the spiritual and the corporeal, then you could say that revering the connections between the elements that constitute nature and the spiritual forces that emante from those elements is very proper. If the Moondancers, wished to revere spiritual forces of a different heriarchy, they probably would find themselves dealing with celestial magics, instead of the considered more primitive natural magic.

The passing of the seasons is of a more physical context than spiritual, even when the cycle may profess some sort of a spiritual connotation. Since Natural magic resorts to invoke the forces of nature (meaning the elements, the lifeforce, and therefore every spirit that resides on the environment), you can say that if the Moondancers have a shrine dedicated to every element, as a whole the entire guildhall is a a complete celebration of Nature.

I don't think you're following what I'm saying though, Desdemona. I don't really care what RL philosophies have revered the elements or how. In Lusternia:

We have CITY NEXII corresponding to ELEMENTS
We have ELEMENTALISM as a CITY SKILL
We have ELEMENTAL planes which were NOT REACHED BY THE NATURE COMMUNES
We have NOT ONE ABILITY which references elements

Because what we are discussing are essentially abstract concepts with no factual basis other than that above, we can use all sorts of circular arguments to justify anything. I could argue that since people are part of nature, Serenwilde should really worship the cities as the centralization of a highly developed species. That doesn't mean that such a philosophy would sit well in Lusternia.

*thwack*

No.

High Magick is simply a way of saying Ceremonial Magick. Drawing forth Holy Power, Evoking Angels and Demons and Invoking your Godhead are all staples of High Magick (Crowley, anyone?).

Low Magick is ritualistic. Think fertility rites, Sabbats, Esbats, Handfasting, etc. Think old pagan cults and pantheons like the one(s) from Northern Europe.


I know this is OOC info, but that is what the skillsets are roughly based on.

I'm very stubborn on the idea that every contemporary fantasy derive inspiration from ancient beliefs (mysticism, myths). And that if you look carefully, you can detect those inspirations, to the point that dismissing them would be out of the questions. Especially when together, those inspirations are cleary connected in a similar fashion as the "factual" ancient beliefs, that sired them, are. There are very few subtle differences between both worlds, why dismiss the similarities? In my opinion, Lusternia is teaming with Celtic, pagan, neopagan, metaphysical, general mysticism ideas, wherever you see, that you can't simply deny them if you are familiarized with it.

And you may discuss that human are part of nature, but you can later on discuss that civilizations are objects of artifice, a clear pervesion of nature made and promoted by human hands as a way to deny their origins and connections to nature. In other words, an abomination. And as is, everything does seem to point towards that direction: humanity and their artificial creations against Mother Earth.

The fact that there are various planes, and all planes are connected is pure deconstruction and hierachication of the planes. Prime, where all we reside, the Ethereal, the plane where the spiritual forces latent within prime linger, Elemental, planes of existance constituting the pure manifestation of the elements and the forces they constitute, on going to the Cosmic and probably up to the Empyreal.

In any case, I believe that shrines dedicated to the Seasons would be more proper for the Hartstone.

Well, actually yes, a worship of seasons would go equally well with Hartstone as Moondancers. Maybe even better with Hartstone as they deal with the physical realm. But it is still a -far- better option than what we have now.

Show me the link from Moondancers to Elementalism, and I will dismiss my objection. If the only link is OOC, then it is wrong to suggest it exists IC.

I have to admit I'm a bit biased on this idea, mainly because the game decided to use the sephirot for highmagic. I happen to know a lot about Judaism and Kabbalah are the same religion and philosophy however there are general stereotypes that go along with those words.

"Religious Jews" are often associated with nitpicky ideas of religion. The cup of wine has to be atleast 4oz, the time of prayers is done at 4:52pm. Its a highly ritualized religion where seemingly bizzare activities are done with a certain precisness.
"Kabbalists" or sometimes "Chasidic Jews" are known to be more "improv" based. They do the same rituals but prayer time is not at 4:52 but rather, "When the sun is no longer seen in the sky." and its not a 4oz cup of wine, its a "Wine cup filled to the top." The activities of the "Kabbalist" are very free form and open to interpretation and inspiration based on the current mood of the person doing the religious act.

Now Lusternia has taken the "sephirot" to be the more ritualistic approach to spirituality, and indeed, in non Jewish sources Kabbalah seems to be based more on specific letter combinations and circles and diagrams, and less on the "spirit that moves you" feel.

Why do I bring this up? Because I don't see the terms Coven and Wicca and Priest to be words that have the same spiritual or practical connotations that they do in our modern 21st Century point of view. Just because the game uses the same word, doesn't mean it has all the same ramifications.

The way I understand the activities of the Moon Covens is that they are more impromptu expressions of the individual and less of the form of ritual that is dictated with exact rules and activities and specific statements. Much like a "rain dance" may always be a dance, but the footsteps in that dance may not always be the same.

Saying that the words 'priest' 'coven' and 'wicca' don't hold meaning in the game because of ooc reasoning and then holding the word 'sephirot' to a strict meaning based on ooc thinking is dubious. That said, I do agree with that last paragraph of yours.

I may not have been clear... I was trying to show how what I know Sephirot to be OOCly are almost 180 of what they are ingame.

I therefore conclude that any other term ingame does not necessarily have to be in line with what that term means OOC.

I understand your point but Lusternia has never really specified whether Moondancers are meant to be ritualised in their Magick or not. There is space for interpretation and the vast majority of that interpretation tends to lean us towards the base inspiration for the skillset - Wicca.

I'm curious how much of that interpreation is based on the surrounding larger philosphy of the "Nature magics" as whole. Because from all that I can read about magic from the help files, it seems clear to me that Cities are highly ritualized and intelectualized while Communes are intuitive and expresonisitic.

In Cosmic guardians for example, the User talks to the head Spiritual person, (such as a demon lord) and is then granted a demon or angel to use, while with the Fae, its the indvidual fae that are summoned and "caught" and brought to the Spirit to be linked to the Moondancer. To me this is just another small example of the Hiearchical nature of Cosmic magic, and the more indpedant nature of Nature magics.

I don't deny that the whole idea of the Fae can be seen as very individual. Fae are pesky tricky little creatures (IC and in mythology) that wouldn't bow down to anyone unless they wanted to (atleast basically, there is also the whole mythology surrounding the Great Hunt which I won't go into). They form friendships and do what they do because they want to, not because some Holy Rite requires it.

But then, there is also the Tripple Goddess to consider (Maiden/Mother/Crone - which, as a side note, has absolutly nothing to do with Fae in mythology, as far as I understand). In Lusternia the Triple Goddess is personified in Her three forms and each has an affinity with various Fae. When we draw on those Fae, you could very well see us as doing what User did in that we ask Albion, for example, to aid us with one of Her Crones.

Does that make sense? I'm feeling a bit tired and finding it hard to express myself.

In histories it says how the merians of Celest had to heal the waters of the Basin, and how to achieve this, they had to connect to the Elemental planes through the ethereal. This clearly shows you how the elemental and the prime plane have been connected through the ethereal, therefore an interconectivity between planes. Also, it discusses how the fae existed in the Prime as only spiritual beings of the earth, until they were introduced into the physical wolrd by an elfen.

This whole relation between plane to plane should give you an idea of how Prime is completely physical, the ethereal constitutes the spirits found in nature and have close ties to the elements (Elemental planes), which in the end have a relation to the Cosmic.
Prime<--->Ethereal<--->Elemental<--->Cosmic<--->Astral. The <---> denotes the existing correlation between a plane and another.

I've tried to explain the relation between the elements and the nature spirits with the few things the Help files provided. But the greatest proof would be more simple: Nature of the prime is made up of Earth, the ground where we walk and plants grow, Water, that runs through the streams and rivers and oceans, Air, which all of us breath, Fire, which is found deep in the earth and can also be the material of our emotions. And I am pretty sure if a Moondancer summoned it's fae infront of me, or I had the AB files of the fae, there would be many allusions connecting those spirits to a given element. Though, by what I've seen... just seeing water nymphs is enough.

And probably a more definate way to see a connection between the Ethereal and the Elemental and Nature would be through Lisaera's help file.

Tending towards the spiritual and magical facets of nature, She is fond of
rituals and often harnesses the powers of the elements for Her own uses.
Her symbol is a silver chalice wreathed in ethereal vines.


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Side Note: You know, dismissing OOC material to regard IC material isn't correct. Especially when the very fiber of our IC reality is constituted by our ooc languages and all the symbolism it portrays. Even when IC things may not be complete representations of OOC things, they are vaguely connected.

Edit: A notice, in the above I described how every element has it's realm and how they come to be related to the ethereal and then be found manifested in the Prime. Though, I stuck to discussing four elements that are the ones most evident: Air, Fire, Earth, Water, I decided to refrain to commenting about the so called quintessence which is supposed to be of an even higher "substance" than the prevoious four "elements"

A hypothetical... The Aquamancers and Geomancers both have many rooms of ethereal gardens in their guildhall, each of which reveres a particular kind of fae and bears statues in their likeness, that of the Great Spirits of all communes, and sacred trees. Do you think this is reasonable?

Edit: I still think you're arguing a different topic than I am. I'm not disputing the fact that you can see elements on prime plane, or that philosophies could be built around them. I'm arguing that in Lusternia, having the Moondancers revere elements doesn't make a lot of sense, given all the evidence against it.

The fact that Elemental planes link to the Prime, or that elements are observable on prime doesn't require that the mystics of nature should follow them. Fae do often become associated with an element (although only the Sylph has a passing reference to any element at all), but that aspect is certainly not pushed in Lusternia, as we (Serenwilde at least, until another commune comes out) associate them instead with different aspects of the Moon.

OOC inferences are fine, but only when they don't contradict already established IC beliefs. I can't say that the followers of Light should all be pacifists because most 'enlightenment' movements share that philosophy - it contradicts the IC conflict that Light has with Taint. (Don't get me started on that topic )

The difference between invoke and evoke is actually quite distinct. When a power is invoked, you call upon it to perform a service for you or in some way channel its power. Invoking is calling upon a higher power. An example of an invocation would be the calling of the corners at the beginning of an IC wiccan ritual.

Evoking implies control, bending something to your will. You evoke things that are below you. An evocation would be comparable to something like a fireball spell. You control some amount of fire and bring it into existance (or on to this plane) through your will.

Though both examples involve elements, they are distinctly different. In the first example I ask the spirit of an element to attend my ritual and lend power, in the second I demand that some mantifestation of an element serve me or attend to me in some way.

Therein lies the difference between high and low magic.

Although high magic tends toward complex ritual, the essence is in the source of the power. In a lowmagic ritual, power is requested through the use of invocation, in a highmagic ritual power is commanded from a subordinate force or entity over which the magician has control. You can extend this to Nihilism or Celestialism as opposed to Wicca, Druidry as opposed to Aqua or Geomancy, and Totems as opposed to the skillset Rituals.