There are also so many proofs against evolution and the big bang.

An example of the top of my head is how when there is an explosion there is a sonic boom. This causes explosions to up a small amount but sideways alot more. You'd see an example on doucmentaries of Nuclear explosion footage.

Anyway when the big bang happened according to Physics the explosion should create a flat universe however Stephen Hawkings even says that the universe is a pear shape therefore not what would be expected if the big bang is right.

However if there is an/a ultimate force/creator/God then he could create it any shape he wants.

If you need anymore of my comments just ask. I have quite a few comments that disprove the science behind evolution and the big bang using science.

If your so certain send me a PM and ill challenge your views. anyway you dont "know" you think with 100% certainty.

- Sorry for the spamming but everytime i post i see another part of this forum that i agree/disagree with. Probably cos im such a devout christian

Like i said challenge me.

Wouldnt evolution have created more sentient beings other then one on our earth?

Yeah but with creation being a fluke the odds are increased so much more thanks to the fact that it all works together ill get the complete txt of paleys watch up here so it makes more sense.

Yes, the odds are low. But they obviously worked. And I'm not sure how a sonic boom would have any effect in space, since there's nothing for the sounds to vibrate with? And this topic is here to discuss, no need for PMs. Also, my whole point is that you don't know. The part where I said I KNEW God didn't exist was my sardonic expression of the point that it's impossible to say something like that without any reasoning, which was what I was arguing against. And who says there AREN'T sentient creatures on earth other than us? Since when were dolphins, for example, not sentient?

None of these have much scientific relevancy, there's plenty of Big Bang models that explain the shape of the universe properly. Regardless, not sure where you're getting this information, but the CBR -does- indicate a flat universe in the first place, and that has little to do with its geometric shape and far moreso with the rate of its expansion.

In my experience, most humans are much less sentient than a lot of animals.

No no, animals are mindless emotionless memoreyless (huh?) stoic little buggers put here for our entertainment and dinner. Don't you know anything?

That has to be the most inane argument I always hear.
It exists so it obviously happened by chance.
Doesn't matter how small the odds are, it happened, so obviously its lucky that way.
If someone is playin craps and gets a 7 on every roll, do you say.. oh that must be it, or do you go and look to see if the dice are loaded?

My favorite quote from alpha centauri (expansion pack to CIVII) was .. "Einstein was wrong, god does indeed play dice, however, the dice are loaded." Thats the quote you get when you discover the Quantuam probablity machine or something like that.

When the odds of something happening randomly are small, the NORMAL conclusion is that it wasn't random. Its a far stretch to say that if something has a low probablity than it MUST be random.

And I always question which god an athiest doesn't believe in. To me, science gives more and more evidence every year to the existance of G-d, and to the existance of a god that has a constant interaction with the world that is continusouly being recreated and every detail being accounted for.


Oh, and one more thing.. I don't see the existance of G-d as a belief or Faith. I do find the question of "Which god exists" to be a question of beleif or Faith, but I KNOW G-d exists in the same way and methods that I KNOW that slavery once existed, or that I KNOW E=mc2.

No, it's more like there's no reason to assume it DIDN'T happen by chance. And it's more logical than the OTHER solution. The argument in itself doesn't prove it, it just disproves the argument intended to disprove the thing it's supporting.



Eh? I find there's less and less evidence. God is, and has been for millenia, a way of explaining the unknown. Now there are less and less things becoming unknown. We know more than we did. Okay, so we know very little. But so what? It's still more than nothing. We don't need to assume the sun's floating around the world and going to bed and stuff anymore. Similarly, from my (and possibly a lot of atheists') point of view, there's no reason to believe God exists anymore, now that we have more logical solutions and are coming closer to the answer anyway.

G-d has never been the way people explain the unkown. If you believe that, you don't understand religious thought.

What is in that dark corner of the room that I can't see? Answer: G-d. That answer is both True and Irrelevant.

G-d does not answer any unkowns to me. I have never been able to accept or solve an unkown by answering "G-d did it" because then the question becomes "Why did G-d do it?" And then you enter a realm of speculation that is dangerous to everyone, most importantly being yourself.

I'll give you plenty of reasons to not think it happened by chance. 1, No other planet has been found that supports life beyond the microbial stage. (And MANY planets have been found). 2. No new type of animal has come into existance. Nor in the past 5,000 year has anything spontaniously come alive and start to reproduce itself. 3. There is 0, none, zilch, evidence that the world we see and live in has a similiar one elsewhere. And yes, any scientist who believes something exists just because it should exist and has no evidence to back it up is normally called "A person of Faith."

If something is random, it will happen more than once.


And once again... If you think the only reason why people believe in G0d is to explain the unkown that you do not understand people or belief or faith.

I take back some of what I said... Ancient greek people and other Paganistic people used gods to explain the unknown.

Judaism never has.


Edit: Listen to any religious music. The songs never say "Oh god, you have explained the unknown." The songs say "You give me hope when all is lost, you show me truth when all is false" and stuff like that.

Ah, that last part took it rather out of context. What it used to be, although it has changed over the millenia as, well, people have found better reasons, is more that..."why are we here?" "God made us here." "Why?" "We don't know, he's God." I'm sure you won't deny that was the line of thinking for many hundreds of years.


1. Not enough for the really low chances it entails.
2. ...eh? And actually, there may not have been spontaneity (pretend that's a word if it isn't), but scientists have succeeded in recreating a basic viral lifeform from its component molecules and an electric shock, or something much more complicated than that.
3. I don't understand that part. Has a similar one? What?


It might happen once, it might happen more than once, it might happen not at all. And where did I say ONLY reason? It has been a major one, if not the only one.

EDIT: Okay, you took back that part. Yay.

The proof is also fallacious

Ah, is it? Damn, I quite liked that one.

a=b (*a)
a^2=ab (+a^2 - 2ab)
a^2 + a^2 -2ab = ab + a^2 - 2ab
2a^2-2ab = a^2-ab
2(a^2-ab) = 1(a^2-ab) (/a^2-ab)
2=1 (-1)
1=0.

Well, that's what my maths teacher said, anyway/

How many atoms are there in the omniverse?

One billion is not a large number.

An interesting theory is that there are multiple universes, each with a different slice of probability. That is, if you rolled a perfectly weighted die in a perfectly random manner, each number would be shown up, just in 6 different universes.

If creation of the universe/Earth/life on Earth did happen by chance, and if this theory is correct, we would find countless universes where the attraction between atoms was too weak, or everything had a positive charge, or the Big Bang never got around to happening. We just need to find a way to view these other universes, if it is even possible.

If God created the universe, I doubt He would leave such a huge mess around, so any other alternate universes would merely be reflections of our own, where events happened slightly differently.

Actually I will deny that one. For a minimum of 2,000 years Jews have known why we are here, and Why G-d created us.

The short answer is True Perfection or Love depending on if your more intelectual or emotional, the long answer probabbly requires 2 years of schooling.


Can you give me any other example of an event only happening once from random activity?

Ignoring the fact that for

a=ab to be true

b=1 must also be true,

(ab)^2 = a^2+2ab+b^2