Are you sure thats the imediate affect?
I would find it just as likely that those subatomic particles are always hitting you causing your brain to change and fire synapsis that define who you are on a moment by moment basis.

Ofcourse, if your going to agree that its these neutrenos that come from who knows where, I would argue that that makes each person just an extension of the universe. The link to theology I think is obvious.

Or, if you prefer, Its all dependant on which star you were born under.

Bah, that was a lot to read, and I'm tired, so I'm only replying to one thing.

Jalain, I'm devoutly religious, my mother is as well. I was not forced into anything. I was not baptized as a child, because my mother wanted it to be MY choice if I was going to be. She did not drag me to church every Sunday, we didn't go to church for years. It was MY decision to go back to church. None of my family goes to my church. -I- choose where I was going to go.

I just wish my parents hadn't gotten me circumcised

Eh, at least with me it was because of illness. *shrug* I would have appreciated not being brought up having to go to church et al. though.

Ok clearly noone went to the sites I posted as the questions that are being discussed have long since been answered.

Anyhow I have a personal question for Daganev pertaining to Jewish people. Why is it that majority of Jewish people in this day and age have not accepted Christ Jesus as the Son of the Living God?

Now I believe I have much of this question answered based on from what I've gathered, but I'm curious as to what you think. Although from what I have studied it appears that the rejection of God and especially the Messiah by Jewish people was addressed and prophesied by Isaiah and other prophets in the Old Testament.

I have attributed this rejection to the strong traditional aspects that Jewish people tend to live by. Now say your born into a Jewish family who's descendants, all the way back to the time of Jesus, were taught that Jesus was a fraud or only a prophet, well then you would naturally believe that as well. Now it gets more complicated then this, but it appears to be the major reason.
One example of this I encountered was when i was talking to a Jewish student and I asked him why Jewish people didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God and his answer was "we just don't".

In Judaism it appears that a man gets into heaven on the basis of the good things they have done or just the fact that they are Jewish or "chosen" people of God. Such a stance doesn't equate well with Scripture. Accepting the Old Testament, but not the New is like accepting some of God's commandments and rejecting others. It's just doesn't work that way.

The Triunity of God is also described in the Old Testament.

P.S.
By saying the Son of God i'm referring to the part of Yahweh that became Jesus known as The Son, so to avoid the whole mormon thing.

In answer to your question Daganev, the fact that a god created a universe in which bad things are visited upon innocent people is not the main reason I abandoned it. The point is rather convincing in some ways though, I suppose. Actually, the biblical passage that you are referring to was the first alarm that showed me I couldn't reconcile my understanding with christianity.

Anyway, as far as the 'perfect' coincidence of the earth's parameters... it shouldn't be surprising that Life turns around and marvels that it developed in a place perfect for Life.

Why should they? He isn't.

::Coughs::

Now, vvart, do you play Lusternia?

I am going to put in a disclaimer. If I insult anyone, I appologize. Since the question was put so bluntly, I will answer it as I see it needs to be answered. It does not reflect on your local Jew.

First off. There is an Organization called Jews For Judaism who's entire goal is to answer this question. Thier website is http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

However, thier approach is very reactionary and I'm not such a big fan, since nobody is trying to convert me. (for your sake I hope thats true)

Where to start?
The Bible is probabbly the best place.
First, is the passage that says "These are the laws G-d has given you, do not add from them or subtract from them." There is a large section of Jewish law that consists of "fences." Everytime a fence was enacted, long and arduious arguments proceded to explain how this fence was not actually a new law, and thus was not "adding" to the Torah.

Ok, change of course, I'll be more philosophical. To explain every relavant verse on this topic would take to long.

G-d Gave the Torah to the Jews at Mount Sinai. The giving of Said Torah (AKA the Five books) was given with conditions. i.e. If you obey the laws you will get X, if you don't obey the laws Y punishments will happen. It is stated that it is an eternal covenant. The agreement with Abraham during the pact of the halves was another eternal covenant that was given without condition. I.e. Abraham's decedants would be a blessing to the world, those who curse his children will be cursed and those who bless his children will be blessed.

Now, I'm not sure exactly what the god you believe in is like, but when My god says something is eternal, he means eternal. Unlike the punishment for eating on Yom Kippur, the punishment for rejecting god is not Karet (Excommunication). The punishment for rejecting god is a lack of rain during the rainy seaons, and war upon the people. So, even if I were to accept the claim that Jews rejected G-d, the result of said event would not be a new covenant, nor would it be the abandoment of G-d from the Jews. The punishment would be a dry and deserted land of Israel. (Such as it was from 1300s - 1850s)

Now, as for Jesus... I do not know enough about Christianity to seperate the teachings of Jesus from the teachings of Paul or Jhon or Luke. However, the BIG glaring reason why it is impossible for a Jew to follow a prophet such as Jesus, is that he teaches that the Laws in the Torah nolonger apply. As I said, the Torah is Eternal, it can not be added to and it can not be subtracted from. For Jesus to say, Love your neighbor but don't worry about keeping Kosher, is, according to the very word of the five books of moses a CLEAR sign that such a prophet is a false prophet.


Now, I notice that most of your argument is based on what I call the Prophets and the Writings. These are books that were cannonized and added to the "bible" over time based on the state of the Jewish people. While these books are inspirational and have many good lessons for people, they do not affect Jewish Law. (except for one area, which is that of prayer do to the fact that it gives specific examples of how Jews lived after the destruction of the temple, and the Holiday of Purim) So any proof comming from the Prophets or the Writings which might imply that a law the Torah states is wrong, is an invalid proof.

Thirdly, there is a very basic Jewish principle that I have repeated here a few times that nobody can fuffill your obligations save another person with the same obligations. Since Jesus did not commit all sins, nor did he force all Jews to break all the laws, Jesus can not suffer on behalf of the people to anull any wrong doings the people or individuals have done. This applies to being Sacrificed on the cross, as much as it applies to a 13 year old boy saying the blessing over food for me.

Now, as to this notion of heaven and "chosen people." First I will deal with hevean. In Judaism there is no concept of Hell. (The following is all metaphor) When a person dies they go to the great Forge in the sky. If a person has all the sins possible, they will be in the fires of that forge for no longer than 12 months. The better the person was in this life, the less time they spend in the forge. However, good deeds done on behalf of the deceased, reduce that time even further. At which point, the souls go and sit in the big Schoolhouse where G-d is the teacher. The better you are, the closer to the front row you sit. The Talmud states 9 Non Jews who were granted to sit in the front row. The Talmud also states 3 Jews who never even made it to the school, as thier souls were deleted. What this basically means, is that ALL people, no matter what they believe will have a place in heaven based on thier ACTIONS, not thier thoughts or what thier heart says. The Famous first question a person is asked when they get to heaven and go before the court is "Did you cheat in business?" it is NOT "Do you Love G-d?" This basic theory of the afterlife, is another reason why it is almost absurd for Jews to believe in Christianity.

Now for the Chosen people bit. The Jewish people were chosen by god to be his priests. As it says "And I will make you a nation of priests, you are to be holy unto me." As every 12 year old Jewish boy loves to say... "Why am I stuck with the responcibility? Did we really have to be chosen, and How can I get myself unchosen." The promise the Jewish people are given from G-d as a reward for being His priests, is that we will be Hunted to the four corners of the globe, hated by every country we try to assimilate in, and be few in numbers for all of eternity. Our Chosenness, is why we are given 613 laws to follow instead of just 7. With higher expectations comes higher punishment. The flip side, or reward of this situation is that G-d declared that Jews will not be affected by Nature like everybody else. Jewish history will not follow the rules of World History. The Concept of the Zodiac is almost useless to us as we are given a status that is outside the normal rules of nature. This is why there is an unexplanable Hatred towards Jews no matter what they do, and also why no matter what happens we will not dissapear nor fade from view.


As for the Triunity of G-d that you say is described in the Torah. The Truth is, G-d is given multiple names in the Torah. Lord of Hosts, Lord, God, King of Kings, Powers, Is-Was-willbe, I am what I am, Rock, Saviour, Sufficient, Power, One, Aiyn Sof and the 13 atributes of Mercy. What this means is that the Old Testament actually describes the 26unity of G-d. (which also happens to be the numerical value of Y(10)H(5)V(6)H(5), which is why that has become the most commonly seen and used name)

Did I leave anything out?

"P.S.
By saying the Son of God i'm referring to the part of Yahweh that became Jesus known as The Son, so to avoid the whole mormon thing."

That is not possible, G-d can not become incarnate, nor seperate himself. G-d is ONE with all the implications that word has.

To be honest, I can't see how somebody can read the Old Testament and concluded that the New Testament is the perfect addition to it. However, I much perfer a person who was brought up with Christian ideas and finds the parts of christianity they can find acceptable, than a person who creates thier own religion and in so doing becomes thier own G-d. (That is very different that a person who questions everything and finds no system worth living by, by the way) But its why places like the Kabbalah Center, or Jews for Jesus just utterly sicken me.

Pah... all that writing and everybody ran away.

Agreed, the old and new testament do seem to reveal a huge shift in thought. Though whether that is cultural or spiritual, who knows. And I'm not sure why you're saying I'm creating my own religion and becoming my own deity... unless you are referring to those two places and not me.

*ponder* That kind of annoyed me about the Mormon heaven-type theology as well. This was a couple of months ago that I was told this, and I was having difficulty understanding, but I managed to get -clearly- that they (or some of them) believe that it's possible for them to become Gods if they get into the first degree of glory or...something. Or maybe it's automatically if they get into the first degree, and most people get into the second degree. I know this 'cause I remember having to argue whether it was possible to have more than one omnipotent being at once. But in any case, that did seem a bit silly, as it sounds an awful lot like more...trying to get people to believe in hopes that it will be better after they die. That sort of thing. Is that the kind of thing you're referring to Daganev?

Not even close.

If one joined The Holy one Blessed be He, it would not be a reward it would be a punishment. It would be the deletion of the Soul.

The number of different imageries given in the Talmud about the after life it mind boggling.

That particular one I picked, is based on being a student in school. (most of us are in that point in our lives now, so I used that one) The better the student, the more you want to sit in the front of the class, those who don't care, sit in the back of the class and goof off. The metaphor used here assumes that everyone wants to be a good student. (something I don't, but can understand the concept of)

Other metaphors say that for every sin you do, you get a black thread, every commandmant you follow, you get a white thread. The clothing you wear in the afterlife is composed entierly of these black and white threads.


another piece of imagery is that you get to build a house. Every positive relationship you form with another person gives you an extra room in your house in which to invite guests into.

You have to keep in mind, that G-d is Infinite, even in the spiritual realm. Therefore, anything that touches G-d becomes G-d and loses all individuality. The borg (from startrek) is a good example of this concept. It is a Jewish law that you can not perform any outward commandments in a cemetary because it makes the people who are buried thier jealous, that they can no longer improve themselves. Individuality is a very important aspect of being a Human.

I would always sit in the back corner and pay attention, not goof off .

heh, me too.
infact, I even always pray in the back right hand corner of the room.


Just to make a point... If you think Jews believe that heaven is full of clothing nad houses and schoolyards, you are sadly mistaken. They are metaphors to explain relationships and feelings that one might expect.

Daganev I will comment on this before I comment on everything else you said as this is something important that both Islam and Judaism doesn't seem to understand.

God can Incarnate himself...saying he can't would be limiting his power by claiming he cannot show himself within the confines of our dimensions. I can also find the verse Isaiah or maybe it was another prophet addressing the fact that God is one nature in three. The other "unity's" you mentioned aren't what i'm referring too.

Yes I have played lusternia, how else would I be here?

Its really not my place to say what is and what is not limiting G-d's power. In the Bible G-d shows himself in 3 different ways. Over Mount Sinai, in the Holy of Holies, and within the Western wall. All three times this even it describe the word used is Shechinah. The female form of the hebrew word to rest and restrict.

However, to say that G-d is able to break himself apart into pieces and that one of those pieces can become Mortal and can die, is to move from Monothiesm to Polythiesm. Infact it is that belief that makes it against the rules for an Orthodox Jew to visit the Churches of Europe.

Not quite true. I can't remember the term and I don't have any texts with me (bit difficult to carry them to work) but there is a particular phrase used when describing divinity which has many incarnations but is actually the one god in different formations.

He didn't say G-d condensed himself into a body, he said "A part" of YHVH went into the Son. To have a part is to be divisible, when something is divisible it is no longer infinite, nor is it "One"