Jews are unique, they are given unique laws and those laws and perspectives are in no way binding to anyone who is not Jewish.

This I do agree with, although I still believe the laws are no more binding to Jews then the gentiles, but that the Jews were chosen spread the Word of God.

However Jesus stated that noone will go to the Father without him. So assuming that Jesus was God, that doesn't paint a good picture for Jews does it, It's clear we are both gonna stick to our beliefs firmly, but I'm curious on what you think on this.

If by biased you mean, non christian, then yes.

False prophets are a lot more convincing than True prophets because they tell you what you want to hear rather than tell you the Truth. That is why there are such strict measures in the Torah to discover if someone is a false prophet. The first of these measures is that they tell you a commandmant is now void.

Jews probably keep the best tract of traditions and know exactly why each of them was implemented, when why, and under who's authority. Jewish law is also VERY clear as to which laws are from the Torah and therefore G-d and which are from Rabinical decrees and are therefore mere Fences.

One of the first Laws in the Torah, after the declaration of new moons is the Law to Follow the Rabbis of your Generation, It is therefore argued that every Rabinic law is infact a Torah low. However, the Rabbis are still very picky to make sure people seperate the two and know one from the other.

I am happy to note that the most Jews that were ever lost to Christianity was through the sword and not the word.

So yes, they could have been assimiliated and implemented by anyone, but guess what? I know who implemented it and when it was assimiliated. The Nature of G-d was implemented and assimilated by Abraham when he destroyed the idols in his father's shop. And later again when he was challenged by Nimrod.

I would hope one such as yourself would be willing to admit thier own biases and not use "bias" as a form of attack or nullification. There is a reason people were created with subjective perspective and why no two creatures on the planet are exactly the same.

As James Joyce wrote in a Portait of an Artist as a young man, I figure when I go to hell, eventually I will get use to it.

Being that Jews are the vehicles of the Satan, he'll probabbly give me a raise for being such a good Jew.

Again your dodging what John Gill said and how Jesus declared not a single Commandment null.

Inability to believe in Jesus on the part of Jews has nothing to do with them discovering something which Christians have overlooked. Jesus already stated why certain people don't believe because frankly the argument that He made the laws non-existent is false, He fulfilled the laws in that we are to follow them because we love God not because we are forced too. Jesus makes this clear and I'm amazed how Jews will turn it around and say "oh well Jesus was telling us laws don't matter so he's a false prophet".

That was a Joke right?
cause from what I gather about Sheol from Scripture, is that its not a place even Satan would enjoy.

Also most false prophets preached that God would bring peace on earth to his followers, Jesus did no such thing. Oh and how is Jesus telling us to cut off the part of our body that has sinned so that we may not commit the same sin twice something someone would wanna hear? All Prophets said both things people wanted to hear (generally pertaining to the coming of God's Kingdom) and other things which they didn't, Jesus is not an exception.

I have yet to hear a valid reason Jews don't believe in Jesus, I'm sorry I just haven't heard one yet or neither do i think that it exists.

I'm sorry your right, I missunderstood your point.

I did not realize that you were saying that Jesus somehow made all the laws Fufilled. I did not realize that was possible.

I do know of some Jewish sources that say in the Time of the Messiah all fast days will become days of feasts, (except for two) and there is something that says after the days of the Messiah we will have Shabbat for 1,000 years, but I don't remember anything saying that when a messiah comes, I will no longer be obligated to scare away a mother bird before I take her eggs.

It is infinitley better and kinder to me (as in I will benefit more), to do a commandment I am forced to do than to do something in which I want to do. When I'm forced to do something, and I'm obligated, my action not comes from my own will, but from my self subjication of my will to do the will of another, which in this case is G-d. When I do something just because I want to, then I will not do it when I don't want to, and thus there is no reason for me to gain extra benefit, or a reward for doing that action. Jews were not tricked into Slavery because they were stupid. It wasn't the Slavery that was so bad, it was the harsh task masters.

Secondly, It is said that during the days of the Messiah ALL the world will come to Jeruslem to pray once a year to give thanks to G-d, and all will understand that G-d is one and his name is one. As Shiri said, many athiests exist. There is currently war in world. Children die of starvation in countries where tyrants kill because they havn't gotten some icecream for breakfast. Doesn't quite look like the days of the Messiah to me.

The 1,000 years after Jesus died wasn't much better.

The problem with your arguments is that your using non Jewish sources to tell a Jew that Jewish sources say Jews should believe in Jesus. You would have more luck in saying G-d doesn't exist, stop being Jewish.

I myself will look further into the whole Commandments deal so to composite a better argument, if need be!, but even in Jewish texts, if you consider NT not to be Jewish even though written by Jews, it states that loving God is the most important thing.

God isn't here for us, we are created for him, so God to make beings just for the sake of them following his laws doesn't really make sense. God rewards he who loves Him and by loving Him will in essence follow Him to the best of his ability. No Jewish person right now or anyone has fulfilled every single law in the Ten Commandments or the all the other laws in the Torah, so i don't see how Jews can really make the claim you just made.
Jesus is the sacrificial lamb for everyone who believes in Him, loves God and in loving God follows God, but will ultimately fall short of God, so to be then raised by Christ for he already paid our punishment of death which God deemed to those who fall short of his Laws. This is the only means by which we can go and be with God, for our sins make us unfit for Him.

Also the 1000 years thing you referring to is when Jesus comes back and rules Jerusalem for 1000 years.

Christians like Jews obligated to follow the Law to the best of their ability, but EVERYONE falls short of them, that is why God had to suffer so to save us. What is so hard to understand about this?

Karl Marx was Jewish, he wrote the communist manfesto. I don't think I'm under any obligation to believe communism is the next stage after Capitalism.

We are here so we can have a relationship with G-d. What is best for me, is what G-d told me is best for me. That includes that it is better to do something that I don't want to do, than it is to do something because I want to. The fact that I enjoy doing something that I am obligated to do, does not negate the fact that I am doing it because I am obligated.

I don't remeber anything that says loving G-d is the most important thing. I do know lots of places that says I should serve the Lord with all my heart and all my soul. Being a servant of G-d is the most important thing when it comes to Man to G-d stuff. Loving my neighbor like I love myself is the most important thing when it comes to Man to Man stuff. Serve G-d, Love Man. It just so happens and its a very nice side benefit that through Serving G-d I come to love him, which then teaches me something very special about loving man as well.

I don't know where this idea that I have to complete EVERY task comes from. Whether I fall short or not is based on my potential and my abilities. It is not comparable to your potential or your abilities. Nor is it comparable to Jesus's abilities, nor to Moses abilities. When I come before the Heavenly court, I will not be asked why I did not do what Moses did, I will be asked why I did not do what I could have done. There is no need for anybody to suffer just because I am not perfect. What is the point of suffering because I was created in a way that is not perfect? The question is not if I fall short of G-d the question is if I fall short of myself.

Again, Jews do not believe or quite frankly understand the concept of Original sin. Its a very foreign idea. I can understand it about just as much as I can understand polythiesm.

When Jesus comes back, then maybe I will believe in him. And even then, Elijah better come before him and announce his arival. And he better bring his family tree that shows he was from the Line of David.(which by the way goes by the father, not by the mother. Hate to tell you this but G-d is not from the family of David) And he better be bringing peace and happiness with him. Untill then, I'm doing fine just believing in the One God.

Well Christians are waiting as well, and I guess that's the thing you guys don't get original sin, but even without original sin, God didn't create us as imperfect beings regarding his Laws, you see, we have the capacity to follow every law, we choose not too. God wouldn't bestow laws upon those who could not obey them.

Have you read the OT, the Prophets were critical of the people for not following various Tasks God had assigned for them. With your logic you would see to it that it's ok not to follow EVERY task because you think it to be impossible, you would then choose i assume which tasks aren't something you can do, personally I don't understand that.

Christians believe in One God as well, what part of that is hard to get, YHWH entering into a human body as a shell created by his Holy Spirit doesn't imply a second God.
YHWH appeared as burning bush, does it mean we have two Gods now? a Bush and Spirit of YHWH? NO!

It is impossible for a single person to follow ALL the laws. A woman can not follow the laws assigned to men. An Israelite can not follow the laws assigned to Cohens. Some laws can only be followed while the Temple stands. Some can only be followed if I live in Israel. Some can only be followed if I'm alive during a Jubilee year, which is once every 70.

As for all the laws that I'm obligated to do, I think its 100% to follow all of them. Its rare though. Thats not really the issue though. I don't know what my potential is. There is no way to know your potential untill you try it and succeed. A story my father likes to relate.
An artist was working on a website. He turned in the page and the Manager said. "Is that the best you can do?" The artist thought about it went back to the drawing board and came back with something new. The Manager said "Is that the best you can do?" The artist thought about it, went back. This happened three or four more times. Eventually the artist burst out in frustration "Yes its the best I can do, if you don't like it you can shove it, and get yourself a new artist." "Ok" said the Maganer "Great work, just wanted to make sure it was your best."

Reform Judaism lets you pick and chose which laws you want to follow. I don't get that either. But reform Judaism was created in responce to trying to Assimilate with Germany in the 1850s, and we know where that ended up.

It would appear to me that Orignial sin says it is impossible for me to do every Law. Judaism says its perfectly possible, but not to feel so guilty if I slip up a bit. It happens to be that if you have low self esteem your not allowed to fufill certain commandments. Because how can you live up to your fullest if you don't think highly of yourself. (You also are not able to be a prophet if you are not humble enough)

G-d did not apear as a burning bush. G-d made a bush burn but not be consumed, and then spoke to Moses. G-d does NOT appear as anything. He sends angels and messangers and signs and wonders. Only when G-d took the Jewish people out of Egypt is it said to be G-d and not a messanger. And in that case there were no appearances or visualizations.

Having Jesus being a part of G-d does not imply a second god it implies a God that has parts and is divisible. Just like somehow God is at war with the Devil. HOw is that so? G-d created the Devil. In Judaism Angels have no free will, only humans do. Angels can only do what they are told to do. Good and Evil is all relatvie anyways. However, I would argue Right and Wrong are not relatvie.

Wow i never realized how different Judaism is, In Christianity we have original sin, I thought that was in Judaism too, hmm perhaps we can discuss why that is at a later time. Anyway Jesus being God doesn't imply God has parts and or is divisible. We know based on the Gospels that all of God was within Jesus and outside of him at the same time. YHWH is being percieved by non-christians not in the sense that he is all powerful spiritual being, capable of doing anything. So not allowing YHWH to have that power isn't giving justice to the Almighty!

I didn't say God comes in parts but the fact is God created various dimensions, if he was to show himself he would have to confine himself to that dimension. The Spirit of YHWH in wanting to show himself to humans came as Jesus. You have not shown how this is impossible nor why it is impossible.

The Trinity isn't God in 3 parts, its YHWH in 3 forms which coexist. YHWH is YHWH no matter in what form, whether it be The Son, The Father, or The Holy Spirit all at once.

The statement i made about a part of YHWH coming as Jesus was to merely show how the entirety of YHWH didn't just confine Himself to a mortal body which would imply a sacrifice of his Divine power. This makes sense when we consider that YHWH makes use of multiple Time dimensions.

I must admit you have stumped me.

The only thing I can say is that G-d is non coporeal. G-d does not have an arm or a leg. As I was saying about the golden calf. A quote from www.jewfaq.org is "The sin of the Golden Calf incident was not that the people chose another deity, but that they tried to represent G-d in a physical form."

Are you saying that G-d infused himself in Jesus's body and Jesus became a prophet or are you saying Jesus WAS/IS God. I see a huge difference between the two. Did Jesus have his own ego and desires? Did Jesus have free will?

G-d says to moses, "No man may see me and Live" If Jesus was G-d anyone who saw him would not be able to live. So I guess without understanding the extent to which you say Jesus was God I don't quite know how to explain the fact that G-d can not and does not have any coporeal parts.

When I first learned about electrons and that they have quantum nonlocality affects, I thought to myself Aha There is G-d good and solid. To which I soon realized, wait no, that would give G-d physicality and that can not be so.

I was just reading a website www.jewfaq.org and looked up the 13 priciples of Faith that basically all Jews accept. As I was reading it, the author pointed at that througouht history each of those beliefs have actually been argued as being necessary or not.

Further down it states Jews don't wory so much about beliefs but rather about actions. And then it states Jews are concerned about relationships more than anything else. And I realized, that That is very true. Our beliefs are really very unimportant. Its our relationships and actions that matter most.

Our most basic relationship and idea is that every person, every human being has a direct relatiionship with G-d.

This is the real reasons Jews don't like the idea of Jesus to much. Jesus says the only way to G-d is through him. Jews say the only way to G-d is Through G-d. Yes I realize you say that Jesus is G-d, but guess what. If I can't just say G-d, then Jesus is not G-d. If its mandatory I say Jesus, than it is not G-d I have a relationship with it is Jesus. And that is why, no matter how different the diffent sects of Judaism believe, it is ultimatly how we relate to others that count. Jews to Man, Jews to Israel, Jews to G-d. And generally the only time a Jew will get upset is when you tell him he can not have a connection with fellow Jews, with Israel or with G-d. And that is exactly what a Jew hears when someone says Jesus will save you.

You may even have noticed this yourself when I keep talking about Jewish Laws and such and traditions and stories.

You are right, God is non coporeal but in saying Jesus is God i'm not saying Jesus the man is God, what i'm saying is that the Spirit of YHWH was in Jesus. Jesus's body was merely like how i imagine it to be a capsule, so had YHWH left this capsule it would then cease to be alive. So when someone looked at Jesus they saw two things, they saw the physicality of Jesus that was a man not God, a fully human being known as the Messiah. However Inside Jesus dwelled YHWH, Jesus states this himself when he says, "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me". When Jesus spoke those words it is how can i say this, it is YHWH speaking. So not how a Prophet takes what God say's and repeats it but God was saying it himself! So that Jesus was YHWH except not in the coporeal sense. We know this because Jesus say's to worship only God yet allows people to worship him, further pointing toward the fact that when one worships Jesus they aren't merely worshiping a coporeal representation of YHWH but YHWH himself.

The Coporeal aspect of Jesus wasn't YHWH, but a fully human man who was the Messiah, but the Spiritual nature of YHWH that was dwelling in Jesus is naturally God. Do you get the difference?

And the reason people saw Jesus and lived is because when they look at Jesus they see the coporeal aspect, they never see the YHWH who is moving the human body he has taken up.

Saying Jesus will save you is like saying God will save you I don't see a difference. Jesus is God in kind of the same way as the part of me that makes me who i am is my soul correct, not the body which is a shell for the soul. The same applies to Jesus or his real name which is Yeshua being YHWH. Whatever your name for God is its still the same God. The thing is Jews by not except all this that YHWH went through(crucifixion, beating etc.) to save everyone are in essence not creating a full relationship with Him. YHWH is doing everything, but i just don't think Jewish people should disregard a great thing He the Lord has done. As Jesus describes Himself as being the Good Shepherd which is how YHWH describes Himself and a ton more similarities like that.

Furthermore YHWH was limited in his power after confining himself to our dimensions, yet he performed miracles as Jesus through the form of the Holy Spirit and God the Father we know is YHWH in Heaven. As mentioned noone can see YHWH as the Father and the Holy Spirit, but they can see Jesus for the reason mentioned above and this further implies why YHWH would come to earth on top of saving mankind and teaching the Jewish people.

I hope i'm making some sense, It's really late at night.

Since every human has the spirit of G-d within them, I don't see what makes Jesus so special

Basically your saying Jesus was possessed?

Anyway, Wikipeidia is your friend. It outlines just about every argument I have stated, and I think we should stop hijacking this thread and return to the discussion of people who believe in God being lunatics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_view_of_Jesus

Basically, what it comes down to is that when Jews say the Word Messiah, they don't mean anything similiar to what a Christian means when they say the word Messiah. Its like a dictionary from the 1820's that says "COMPUTER: n. A Person who Computes." Vs. a dictionary from the 1990s thats says "COMPUTER: n. The thing you are using to read this, you Idiot!"

Jesus had the Holy Spirit in him, yes Jewish people before his arrival had the Holy Spirit but what i'm saying is Jesus is another name for YHWH or God. Every human being isn't YHWH in that my thought's are not YHWH's thoughts. Jesus's body was merely a capsule. So without my soul, my body is nothing but essentially a big engine with no thoughts. YHWH is Jesus not in that Jesus's human body was YHWH but that Jesus's mind was YHWH. You get what i mean!!

Possession requires another entity taking over the mind of another entity. What i stated above negates this.

Your right this likely won't get anymore, you do understand i'm sure now that when we say Jesus is God we are not talking about polytheism in anyway here, or that God is part human.

Well, just so you all feel better, I still think you are lunatics. But that's ok, I believe in a duality expressed in, basically, any way a person can think to express it.

We're all crazy, really.

I do have a question though and this may very well come from my Ego, but oh well: how do you - as in whoever is reading this - how do you feel about the God of Israel being expressed as a male and not a female?

I know the OT speaks of YHWH's wisdom in a feminine sense (or was it a different aspect? I can't remember) and some other things, but YHWH is usually expressed in the masculine.

I ask because, even though I'm a guy myself, I have a big problem with believing that.

The G-d of Israel is neither Male nor Female.

However, Hebrew Grammer is full of Male and Female language. A Table is male while a notebook if female. Any word ending in a T sound or a H sound is Female. Thats just the way the grammer works. If IT didn't normally only refer to inanimate objects, it would be a better pronoun. I'm not politically correct enough to care so I just use HE. Its shorter and not wierd sounding.

Vvart, the more you try to explain how much Jesus is not a polythiestic expression of God the more you make it sound like it is. I'm sorry.

No christian or christian website has yet convinced me that I am allowed to enter your Churches and enjoy the paintings. Except those sects that believe Jesus was just a really cool guy.

Oh I don't believe your god is male either, I am just curious as to how people feel about it being expressed as male most of the time. Perhaps I could have worded it better.

yeah, I just find it a silly critisim that I often hear. Its like saying I object to Coke being spelled with a C it should be Koke! Only more emotional and stuff.

Mmm perhaps, but gender plays a huge role in every single society on earth, not just human ones. It's a little more complex than grammar.