Just curious - what makes you think it happened "first time"?

we exist....

Okay, I'll change the emphasis of that.

If it didn't happen first time you'd find lots of evidence of "failed" attempts, since mostly they wouldn't be biological in nature.

I don't know of a single modern scientific theory that says the big bang happened a few times before we got this one.

I'm not sure why there'd be lots of evidence of failed attempts. Since the universe wouldn't have been created if it failed, so there'd be no...evidence to give. That's my view, anyway.

The modern science view goes more like "there was no time before the big bang, because it created time (because it's relative to space and such), so there can't really be a "first time" anyway."

EDIT: And while I'm at it, I'm fairly sure I've heard somewhere that plenty of people think the big bang (and big crunch) have happened plenty of times. But then I'm not sure about that, so whatever. Maybe Rhysus could clarify or something.

Before Einstein had his theory of relativity, it was a common theory. But now the theory is not plausible. Unless you first disprove Einstein.

If there is no time, then the event could only happen once, and the first time. Why? because for it to happen previously would imply a time before the time it happend. but once it happend, its the first time. To imply other attempts would imply time. If science says time did not exist than you can only have one attempt.

Check out some of the advances into string theory. Our universe is one of many.

The big bang is caused by 13th dimensional 'bubbles' colliding with one another.

::Coughs::

Just a theory, but hell, it's a mathematical explanation some dudes seem to like.

How do "bubbles" fit into "string" theory?

The string theory relates to multi-dimensional realities and bubble theory relates to the constrant expansion and contraction of universes relative to each other. That's my understanding.

The idea that there was nothing before there was something is no less scary than the idea that there was not nothing, but a different something, for eternity both before and after. That statement is only slightly less confusing than the theories that lie behind either option.

Bubbles and strings start to make sense when you think of the world at a quantum level but at the end of it all we are all trying to climb a wall around the world and the metaphysical mathematician with all the answers is no nearer the top than we are. Nothing science can come up with can be proven any more effectively than the idea of an intelligent creator. When neither side can agree, we are left only with faith - scientific or religious, it makes little difference.

I have been touched by faith and I have come to learn about and love Jesus, but the whole thing is so full of contradictions that I can't let faith take over from my common sense about the world around me.

Taking Daganev's point about the old testament and science - the Ark is the story that convinced me that the early testament writings are allegorical rather than factual. Consider the following:

Creation allows for micro but not macro evolution. We destroy species at an alarming rate so at the time of the flood there will have been maybe as many as twice the number of species around that exist today. At the moment there are about 180million distinct species that we know of.

The old testament gives dimensions to the Ark. There are debates about what each dimension means in modern terms, but it gives an idea of scale. Taking an average size for a pair of animals, with room to move and feed and toilet, the Ark described in Genesis would hold maybe one thousandth of the total number of species it was expected to.

One argument is that it didn't need to hold fish, or birds, or ducks. There are some species that could exist for 40 days without touching earth, but not many. Remember Noah released the dove expecting it to return not having found dry land so no dry land could have existed. Also, with fish, was the flood salt water or fresh? at least half of the water species would not survive so the ark had holding tanks?

Plant life would have been destroyed after 40 days submerged, so the time the animals were expected to survive was a full growing season beyond the 40 days.

The flood story exists in babelonean and zoroastrian (spelling?) texts, and occurs at about the same time in history. What this suggests to me is that this was a local freak weather thing that took on biblical proportions when the accounts were written into the bible. This makes sense when you consider that the accounts would have been handed down through families who didn't know of lands beyond the flood area, and even the early prophets would not have know about the natural forces that would have created such a flood. This goes back to the 747 thing - the ONLY explanation they had was that the hand of god created the forces that we now understand to be natural or man-made.

None of this discounts the idea that the old testament was divinely inspired. It would be foolish to dismiss this, but whatever divine inspiration was behind it, the pen was in the hand of humans.

I think its very hard to understand what the bible means in stories before that of Abraham. The flood happened when Noah was 600 years old. Even if you were to understand "all the animals" as being "all the livestock that your society uses on a regular basis" the ark would still be too small. Its not like people back then just couldn't do math. Everything up untill Abraham is an explanation of how society went from knowing that G-d existed, to not beleiving in idols that they made themselves. They dimenions themselves have meaning when you remember that numbers are very symbolic in the old testament.

I don't know any human who would write something, claiming it was from G-d and put in such obvious 'mistakes.' People try to make things fit as nicely as possible, especially when they are doing something they are forging. I don't think its a coincidence that the year Noah "died" is the very same year that Abarham discoverd that there is only one god. (1948 in the Jewish calendar... ironic I think)


edit: Oh, and the flood was 40 days, The water was on the earth for 150 days before it started to diminish. 1 year after the flood started did Noah finally "open his hatch" and see that the land was "begining to dry" So the story is really more outrageous than your first impressions of it are.

edit number 2: A cubit is a subjective measurement that is why it can't be translated. A Cubit is the length from your fingertips to your elbow. Measurements are subjective so that "even if you are alone on an island, you will know how to follow the law." Average cubit is 18 inches, atleast thats what we go by.

There are plenty of scientific theories that state just that, Dag. It's just that they may as well have never happened. All the information from one Big Bang to the next is lost in the Collapse of the previous epoch.

Looking back it all stops at the Planck wall where time and space started to be formed and looking forward it all gets wooly at the heat death or big crunch or when we hit the bubble next to us. the truth is WE CAN'T POSSIBLY KNOW.

Yep. With current (and foreseeable) technology, it's impossible to say either way. Only through directly intervening in the process could a conclusion be reached.

It doesn't matter how many times it started. If you run the lottery a trillion times, each event still stands on it's own probability. It happened first time for us.

It's called the anthropic principle, and some of the best scientific minds in the world have drawn the conclusion that all paths leads to some form intelligent creation.

Er...of course it's the first time to us. But the thing is, so what if each event stands on its own probability? SOMEONE'S gotta win the lottery.

That's the point. As much as I discare for certain aspects of the Anthropic Principle, this much is pretty easy to agree with. The fact that we are here indicates that the laws of our universe provide for the possibility of our being here. That's pretty obvious. But the theory so goes that, the laws of our universe are either A. only one set of laws in one universe among a sea of near infinite universes or B. the laws of our universe in this current epoch, as opposed to a previous epoch during which the laws of the universe may or may not have assembled in such a fashion as to permit the existence of life. The former deals with bubble universes and the like, the latter with the expansion and contraction of the universe in an infinite series of Big Bang/Big Crunch pairs, with new fundamental constants and structural paradigms becoming manifest near the beginning of each new Big Bang.

I don't know of any serious scientist that thinks the universe expands and contracts. The Universe has far surprassed the density for Gravity to pull the universe back in on itself.

Theres nothing worse than disguising relgion as science.

In order for there to be a collapse, and outside force would have to actively push the universe together.

String theory is based on the concept of the vibrations of strings. Strings that are bound to our dimensions, and loops that are not.
I've always found this intersting because music is one of the most spiritual forms of communication.

If we assume the universe is expanding, and basic doppler theory can prove this, and the whole entropic process is heading for heat death, the energy created by macro-gravitational actions is enough to contribute and sustain the background radiation long after the energy from the big bang is spent. But like any other theory, how can we know? The difference with some theories is that they actually obey Newtonian principles and are therefore sound. String theory is still in the realms of metaphysics.

Joseph Smith never claimed to be God - and even if he did, he didn't back it up by rising from the dead and raising others from the dead. Second, Joseph Smith is not referenced in a great many OT prophecies (some of which I have already noted). But probably the most important thing is that Jesus did NOT sin - he upheld the entire law of the OT, and did nothing to contradict it. This is how we know that Jesus is special; he upheld the Father's law and in doing so did not contradict any part of the Scripture and its teachings. He referenced old scripture repeatedly, and further exclaimed, "I did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it."

This fundamental difference can also be applied to David Koresh. He was the leader of the cult in Waco Texas who's compound was eventually surrounded and destroyed in a standoff in the early '90's (can't remember exact date). Koresh also claimed to be Jesus, but there are a few key things. First he was sleeping with most of his followers, including underage girls. Second at the end he was basically holding everyone hostage, and whom he could, he convinced to commit suicide. Those thigns alone are enough to recognize that this man was not sinnless and was clearly not even close to understanding God's Word. Daganev its rather audacious and frankly very insulting that you would even attempt to compare the two.


As I have already stated, the old covenant wasn't upheld by the Jews and such was broken, now if you have real EVIDENCE to the contrary i would like to see it.

Also as I have stated numerous times earlier, you have no evidence from scripture as to why YHWH couldn't take upon Himself human nature. All your arguments revolve around the fact that God can't do this and God is like this so he wouldn't do this. You really need more than your mere belief's or the norm thats been established in Judaism to prove your case. Scripture is the final say in matters such as these and basically show me that you can make a case with scripture or else just state that its a matter of belief.

These are Moses last words:
Moses' Song

32:1 Listen heaven! I will speak! Earth! Hear the words of my mouth!
32:2 My lesson shall drop like rain, my saying shall flow down like the dew - like a downpour on the herb, like a shower on the grass.
32:3 When I proclaim God's name, praise God for His greatness.
32:4 The deeds of the Mighty One are perfect, for all His ways are just. He is a faithful God, never unfair; righteous and moral is He.
32:5 Destruction is His children's fault, not His own, you warped and twisted generation.
32:6 Is this the way you repay God, you ungrateful, unwise nation? Is He not your Father, your Master, the One who made and established you?
32:7 Remember days long gone by. Ponder the years of each generation. Ask your father and let him tell you, and your grandfather, who will explain it.
32:8 When the Most High gave nations their heritage and split up the sons of man, He set up the borders of nations to parallel the number of Israel's descendants.
32:9 But His own nation remained God's portion; Jacob was the lot of His heritage.
32:10 He brought them into being in a desert region, in a desolate, howling wasteland. He encompassed them and granted them wisdom, protecting them like the pupil of His eye.
32:11 Like an eagle arousing its nest, hovering over its young, He spread His wings and took them, carrying them on His pinions.
32:12 God alone guided them; there was no alien power with Him.
32:13 He carried them over the earth's highest places, to feast on the crops of the field. He let them suckle honey from the bedrock, oil from the flinty cliff.
32:14 the cheese of cattle, milk of sheep, fat of lambs, rams of the Bashan, and luscious fat wheat. They drank the blood of grapes for wine.
32:15 Jeshurun thus became fat and rebelled. You grew fat, thick and gross. abandoned the God who made it and spurned the Mighty One who was its support.
32:16 They provoked His jealousy with alien practices; made Him angry with vile deeds.
32:17 They sacrificed to demons who were non-gods, deities they never knew. These were new things, recently arrived, which their fathers would never consider.
32:18 You thus ignored the Mighty One who bore you; forgot the Power who delivered you.
32:19 When God saw this, He was offended, provoked by His sons and daughters.
32:20 He said:
I will hide My face from them, and see what will be their end. They are a generation which reverses itself and cannot be trusted.

32:21 They have been faithless to Me with a non-god, angering Me with their meaningless acts. Now I will be unfaithful to them with a non-nation, provoking them with a nation devoid of gratitude.
32:22 My anger has kindled a fire, burning to the lowest depths. It shall consume the land and its crops, setting fire to the foundations of mountains.
32:23 I will heap evil upon them, striking them with My arrows.
32:24 bloated by famine, consumed by fever, cut down by bitter plague. I will send against them fanged beasts, with venomous creatures who crawl in the dust.
32:25 Outside, the sword shall butcher boys, girls, infants, white-headed elders, while inside, there shall be terror.
32:26 I was prepared to exterminate them, to make their memory vanish from among mankind.
32:27 But I was concerned that their enemies would be provoked, and their attackers alienated, so that they would say, 'Our superior power and not God, was what caused all this.'
32:28 But they are a nation who destroys good advice, and they themselves have no understanding.
32:29 If they were wise, they would contemplate this, and understand what their end will be.
32:30 How could one pursue a thousand, or two , ten thousand, if their Mighty One had not given them over, and God had not trapped them?
32:31 Their powers are not like our Mighty One, although our enemies sit in judgment.
32:32 But their vine is from the vine of Sodom and the shoot of Gomorrah. Their grapes are poison grapes; their grape cluster is bitterness to them.
32:33 Their vine is serpents' venom, like the poison of the dreadful cobra.
32:34 But it is concealed with Me for the future, sealed up in My treasury.
32:35 I have vengeance and retribution, waiting for their foot to slip. Their day of disaster is near, and their time is about to come.
32:36 God will then take up the cause of His people, and comfort His servants. He will have seen that their power is gone, with nothing left to keep or abandon.
32:37 will then say: Where is their god, the power in which they trusted?
32:38 who ate the fat of their sacrifices and drank the wine of their libations? Let them now get up and help you! Let them be your protector!
32:39 But now see! It is I! I am the One! There are no gods with Me! I kill and give life! If I crushed, I will heal! But there is no protection from My power!
32:40 I lift My hand to heaven and say: I am Life forever.
32:41 I will whet My lightning sword and grasp judgment in My hand. I will bring vengeance against My foes, and repay those who hated Me.
32:42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood, My sword consuming flesh. The enemy's first punishment will be the blood of the slain and wounded.
32:43 Let the tribes of His nation sing praise, for He will avenge His servants' blood. He will bring vengeance upon His foes, and reconcile His people His land.


Its an endless cycle of disobeying, suffering, and being returned. It happened in the time of the prophets, it happened with the greeks, with the romans, with the ayrrians, with the babylonians, with the persians, it happned during the crusades, it happened during the black plague, it happened during the spanish inquisition, it happened during the Russian revolution with the Cossacks, it happened in 1935.

Its a cycle that will only stop once the messiach comes.

If you went purely on bible versus, you would have to say that god does indeed have hands, a back, a face, arms, a voice. But G-d is very clear on this subject....

4:1 Now, Israel, listen to the rules and laws that I am teaching you to do, so that you will remain alive and come to occupy the land that God, Lord of your fathers, is giving you.
4:2 Do not add to the word that I am commanding you, and do not subtract from it. You must keep all the commandments of God your Lord, which I am instructing you.
4:3 You have see with your own eyes what God did at the Baal Peor episode. God your Lord annihilated every person among you who followed Baal Peor.
4:4 Only you, the ones who remained attached to God your Lord, are all alive today.
4:5 See ! I have taught you rules and laws as God my Lord has commanded me, so will be able to keep them in the land to which you are coming and which you will be occupying.
4:6 Safeguard and keep , since this is your wisdom and understanding in the eyes of the nations. They will hear all these rules and say, 'This great nation is certainly a wise and understanding people.'
4:7 What nation is so great that they have God close to it, as God our Lord is, whenever we call Him?
4:8 What nation is so great that they have such righteous rules and laws, like this entire Torah that I am presenting before you today?
4:9 Only take heed and watch yourself very carefully, so that you do not forget the things that your eyes saw. Do not let leave your hearts, all the days of your lives. Teach your children and children's children about
4:10 the day you stood before God your Lord at Horeb.
It was then that God said to me, 'Congregate the people for Me, and I will let them hear My words. This will teach them to be in awe of Me as long as they live on earth, and they will also teach their children.'

4:11 You approached and stood at the foot of the mountain. The mountain was burning with a fire reaching the heart of heaven, with darkness, cloud and mist.
4:12 Then God spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but saw no image; there was only a voice.
4:13 He announced to you His covenant, instructing you to keep the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two stone tablets.
4:14 At that time, God commanded me to teach you rules and laws, so that you will keep them in the land which you are crossing to occupy.
4:15 Watch yourselves very carefully, since you did not see any image on the day that God spoke to you out of the fire at Horeb.
4:16 You shall therefore not become corrupt and make a statue depicting any symbol. any male or female image,
4:17 or the image of any animal on earth, any winged creature that flies in the sky,
4:18 any lower form of land animal, or any animal that lives in the water below the earth.
4:19 When you raise your eyes to the sky, and see the sun, moon, stars and other heavenly bodies, do not bow down to them or worship them. It was to all the nations under the heavens that God made them a portion.
4:20 But you, God Himself took, and He brought you out of the iron crucible that was Egypt, so that you would be His heritage nation, as you are today.
4:21 God displayed anger at me because of your words, and He swore that I would not cross the Jordan, and that I would not come to the good land that God your Lord is giving you as a heritage.
4:22 I will die in this land and will not cross the Jordan, while you will be the ones to cross and occupy the good land.
4:23 Be careful that you not forget the covenant that God your Lord made with you. make for yourself any statue image that is forbidden by God.
4:24 God your Lord is a consuming fire, a God demanding exclusive allegiance.

Allegiance to God

4:25 When you have children and grandchildren, and have been established in the land for a long time, you might become decadent and make a statue of some image, committing an evil act in the eyes of God your Lord and making Him angry.
4:26 I call heaven and earth as witnesses for you today that you will then quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to occupy. You will not remain there very long, since you will be utterly destroyed.
4:27 God will then scatter you among the nations, and only a small number will remain among the nations to which God will lead you.
4:28 There you will serve gods that men have made out of wood and stone, which cannot see, hear, eat or smell.
4:29 Then you will begin to seek God your Lord, and if you pursue Him with all your heart and soul, you will eventually find Him.
4:30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, you will finally return to God your Lord and obey Him.
4:31 God your Lord is a merciful Power, and He will not abandon you or destroy you; He will not forget the oath He made upholding your fathers' covenant.
4:32 You might inquire about times long past, going back to the time that God created man on earth, one end of the heavens to the other. See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard.
4:33 Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?
4:34 Has God ever done miracles bringing one nation out of another nation with such tremendous miracles, signs, wonders, war, a mighty hand and outstretched arm, and terrifying phenomena, as God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
4:35 You are the ones who have been shown, so that you will know that God is the Supreme Being, and there is none besides Him.
4:36 From the heavens, He let you hear His voice admonishing you, and on earth He showed you His great fire, so that you heard His words from the fire.
4:37 It was because He loved your fathers, and chose their children after them, that Himself brought you out of Egypt with His great power.
4:38 He will drive away before you nations that are greater and stronger than you, so as to bring you to their lands, and give them to you as a heritage, as today.
4:39 Realize it today and ponder it in your heart: God is the Supreme Being in heaven above and on the earth beneath - there is no other.
4:40 Keep His decrees and commandments that I am presenting to you today, so that He will be good to you and your children after you. Then you will endure for a long time in the land that God your Lord is giving you for all time.


Only Jews need to be Jewish.
Christans need to understand that Christianity does not stand up to any scrutiny from Jewish people. Just about every basic belief in Christianity is opposite of what Judaism is.

In Christainity, you need to believe, in Judaism belief means less than didly squat. Its relationships and actions that matter. You may notice that all curses and blessings that G-d speaks about are fairly concrete consequences. No where does it say, you will go to hell.

The first five books don't even explicitly mention an afterlife, because it is this life that is important, not the afterlife. Moses' place of death isn't even mentioned because we do not want to diefy people who have died.

As for Jesus sinning... He broke quite a few rules. But since you say he came to "fullfill" some new convenant, you'll just say those rules didn't matter anymore.
Rule 1. Listen to the Rabbis of your generation.
Rule 2. Do not add or subtract from the Torah.
Rule 3. Do not put a stubling block infront of the blind. (You appear to say that only through Jesus can you get to G-d, but G-d says clearly in the text I quoted that he is always close)
Rule 4. His relationship with his parents is questionable, as was the way he treated the elders.