Daganev2005-03-13 11:50:35
Here is the story of Elijah ressurecting somebody from Kings 1. I believe this translation is from the King James bible.
Heres a list from a Christan site of all the Miracles Elisha and Elijah performed
Lots of cool stuff, but neither are called the Messiah. Second, the First five books of Moses says that No prophet will ever come who is greater than Moses was. One of the striking things about the Jewish religion is the amount of times we reduce Moses's role in Judaism. Moses's name isn't mentioned in the telling of the story of the Exodus of Egypt, only G-d is mentioned. We have a strong tradition of realizing that G-d is the one in ultimate control, and indviduals, although great people and important people to learn from, are not dieties themselves and can never come CLOSE to what it means to be close to G-d which each person has the ability to do.
Christianity Obviously has a large part to play in G-d's plan. I find no question in that, but so does Islam, and so does Athiesm and so does Communism,Capitalism, Democracy, Monarchy and Socialism, however, not every person needs to follow every ideal just because it plays a part in the grand history of things.
The thug on the street to kills some innocent person has as much a part to play as the Social worker who saves the lives of countless children. This is precisly why one does not follow someone because they can perform "Really cool miracles."
Let me tell you something about "Claims"
the begining of the 10 commandments says "I am the Lord your G-d who took you out of Egypt" it does not say "who create the world" Because there were no witnesses to the creation of the world so who would know the Truth on that? However, G-d (not just Moses) Did come before the ENTIRE Jewish people. In Fact the last book of the Chumash (five books of moses) in the book of Deuteronomy Chapter 4 it says.
So, first, for Jews to ever believe that G-d could possibly change hsi mind, he would have to declare this fact to the ENTIRE Jewish people again, not just a few guys. Second, the Torah here is infact Challenging every religion to ever exist on earth to even make the CLAIM that G-d spoke to everybody, let alone the fact. Find me one religion that makes such a Claim that G-D Himself spoke to EVERYBODY.
If I were to somehow be convinced to become Christian, I would have to A. Be Baptised, B. Reject my faith in Judaism, and C. Accept a new G-d upon myself that goes by the name of Jesus. If thats not a full conversion process like any other religion I don't know what is.
QUOTE
17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.
17:2 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
17:3 Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that before Jordan.
17:4 And it shall be, thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.
17:5 So he went and did according unto the word of the LORD: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that before Jordan.
17:6 And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.
17:7 And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land.
17:8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
17:9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.
17:10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
17:11 And as she was going to fetch , he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.
17:12 And she said, the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
17:13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.
17:14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.
17:15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat days.
17:16 the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.
17:17 And it came to pass after these things, the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
17:18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
17:19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
17:23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou a man of God, that the word of the LORD in thy mouth truth.
17:2 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
17:3 Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that before Jordan.
17:4 And it shall be, thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.
17:5 So he went and did according unto the word of the LORD: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that before Jordan.
17:6 And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.
17:7 And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land.
17:8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
17:9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.
17:10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
17:11 And as she was going to fetch , he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.
17:12 And she said, the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
17:13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.
17:14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.
17:15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat days.
17:16 the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.
17:17 And it came to pass after these things, the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
17:18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?
17:19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
17:20 And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
17:23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth.
17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou a man of God, that the word of the LORD in thy mouth truth.
Heres a list from a Christan site of all the Miracles Elisha and Elijah performed
QUOTE
Miracles in the Career of Elijah:
1) Causing the rain the cease for 3 1/2 years (1Ki 17:1)
2) Being fed by the ravens (1Ki 17:4)
3) Miracle of the barrel of meal and cruse of oil (1Ki 17:14)
4) Resurrection of the widow's son (1Ki 17:22)
5) Calling of fire from heaven on the altar (1Ki 18:38)
6) Causing it to rain (1Ki 18:45)
7) Prophecy that Ahab's sons would all be destroyed (1Ki 21:22)
8) Prophecy that Jezebel would be eaten by dogs (1Ki 21:23)
9) Prophecy that Ahaziah would die of his illness (2Ki 1:4)
10) Calling fire from heaven upon the first 50 soldiers (2Ki 2:10)
11) Calling fire from heaven upon the second 50 soldiers (2Ki 2:12)
12) Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:8)
13) Prophecy that Elisha should have a double portion of his spirit (2Ki 2:10)
14) Being caught up to heaven in a whirlwind (2Ki 2:11)
Miracles in the Career of Elisha:
1) Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:14)
2) Healing of the waters (2Ki 2:21)
3) Curse of the she bears (2Ki 2:24)
4) Filling of the valley with water (2Ki 3:17)
5) Deception of the Moabites with the valley of blood (2Ki 3:22)
6) Miracle of the vessels of oil (2Ki 4:4)
7) Prophecy that the Shunammite woman would have a son (2Ki 4:16)
8) Resurrection of the Shunammite's son (2Ki 4:34)
9) Healing of the gourds (2Ki 4:41)
10) Miracle of the bread (2Ki 4:43)
11) Healing of Naaman (2Ki 5:14)
12) Perception of Gehazi's transgression (2Ki 5:26)
13) Cursing Gehazi with leprosy (2Ki 5:27)
14) Floating of the axe head (2Ki 6:6)
15) Prophecy of the Syrian battle plans (2Ki 6:9)
16) Vision of the chariots (2Ki 6:17)
17) Smiting the Syrian army with blindness (2Ki 6:18)
18) Restoring the sight of the Syrian army (2Ki 6:20)
19) Prophecy of the end of the great famine (2Ki 7:1)
20) Prophecy that the scoffing nobleman would see, but not partake of, the abundance (2Ki 7:2)
21) Deception of the Syrians with the sound of chariots (2Ki 7:6)
22) Prophecy of the seven-year famine (2Ki 8:1)
23) Prophecy of Benhadad's untimely death (2Ki 8:10)
24) Prophecy of Hazael's cruelty to Israel (2Ki 8:12)
25) Prophecy that Jehu would smite the house of Ahab (2Ki 9:7)
26) Prophecy that Joash would smite the Syrians at Aphek (2Ki 13:17)
27) Prophecy that Joash would smite Syria thrice but not consume it (2Ki 13:19)
28) Resurrection of the man touched by his bones (2Ki 13:21)
1) Causing the rain the cease for 3 1/2 years (1Ki 17:1)
2) Being fed by the ravens (1Ki 17:4)
3) Miracle of the barrel of meal and cruse of oil (1Ki 17:14)
4) Resurrection of the widow's son (1Ki 17:22)
5) Calling of fire from heaven on the altar (1Ki 18:38)
6) Causing it to rain (1Ki 18:45)
7) Prophecy that Ahab's sons would all be destroyed (1Ki 21:22)
8) Prophecy that Jezebel would be eaten by dogs (1Ki 21:23)
9) Prophecy that Ahaziah would die of his illness (2Ki 1:4)
10) Calling fire from heaven upon the first 50 soldiers (2Ki 2:10)
11) Calling fire from heaven upon the second 50 soldiers (2Ki 2:12)
12) Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:8)
13) Prophecy that Elisha should have a double portion of his spirit (2Ki 2:10)
14) Being caught up to heaven in a whirlwind (2Ki 2:11)
Miracles in the Career of Elisha:
1) Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:14)
2) Healing of the waters (2Ki 2:21)
3) Curse of the she bears (2Ki 2:24)
4) Filling of the valley with water (2Ki 3:17)
5) Deception of the Moabites with the valley of blood (2Ki 3:22)
6) Miracle of the vessels of oil (2Ki 4:4)
7) Prophecy that the Shunammite woman would have a son (2Ki 4:16)
8) Resurrection of the Shunammite's son (2Ki 4:34)
9) Healing of the gourds (2Ki 4:41)
10) Miracle of the bread (2Ki 4:43)
11) Healing of Naaman (2Ki 5:14)
12) Perception of Gehazi's transgression (2Ki 5:26)
13) Cursing Gehazi with leprosy (2Ki 5:27)
14) Floating of the axe head (2Ki 6:6)
15) Prophecy of the Syrian battle plans (2Ki 6:9)
16) Vision of the chariots (2Ki 6:17)
17) Smiting the Syrian army with blindness (2Ki 6:18)
18) Restoring the sight of the Syrian army (2Ki 6:20)
19) Prophecy of the end of the great famine (2Ki 7:1)
20) Prophecy that the scoffing nobleman would see, but not partake of, the abundance (2Ki 7:2)
21) Deception of the Syrians with the sound of chariots (2Ki 7:6)
22) Prophecy of the seven-year famine (2Ki 8:1)
23) Prophecy of Benhadad's untimely death (2Ki 8:10)
24) Prophecy of Hazael's cruelty to Israel (2Ki 8:12)
25) Prophecy that Jehu would smite the house of Ahab (2Ki 9:7)
26) Prophecy that Joash would smite the Syrians at Aphek (2Ki 13:17)
27) Prophecy that Joash would smite Syria thrice but not consume it (2Ki 13:19)
28) Resurrection of the man touched by his bones (2Ki 13:21)
Lots of cool stuff, but neither are called the Messiah. Second, the First five books of Moses says that No prophet will ever come who is greater than Moses was. One of the striking things about the Jewish religion is the amount of times we reduce Moses's role in Judaism. Moses's name isn't mentioned in the telling of the story of the Exodus of Egypt, only G-d is mentioned. We have a strong tradition of realizing that G-d is the one in ultimate control, and indviduals, although great people and important people to learn from, are not dieties themselves and can never come CLOSE to what it means to be close to G-d which each person has the ability to do.
Christianity Obviously has a large part to play in G-d's plan. I find no question in that, but so does Islam, and so does Athiesm and so does Communism,Capitalism, Democracy, Monarchy and Socialism, however, not every person needs to follow every ideal just because it plays a part in the grand history of things.
The thug on the street to kills some innocent person has as much a part to play as the Social worker who saves the lives of countless children. This is precisly why one does not follow someone because they can perform "Really cool miracles."
Let me tell you something about "Claims"
the begining of the 10 commandments says "I am the Lord your G-d who took you out of Egypt" it does not say "who create the world" Because there were no witnesses to the creation of the world so who would know the Truth on that? However, G-d (not just Moses) Did come before the ENTIRE Jewish people. In Fact the last book of the Chumash (five books of moses) in the book of Deuteronomy Chapter 4 it says.
QUOTE
4:31 God your Lord is a merciful Power, and He will not abandon you or destroy you; He will not forget the oath He made upholding your fathers' covenant.
4:32 You might inquire about times long past, going back to the time that God created man on earth, one end of the heavens to the other. See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard.
4:33 Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?
4:34 Has God ever done miracles bringing one nation out of another nation with such tremendous miracles, signs, wonders, war, a mighty hand and outstretched arm, and terrifying phenomena, as God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
4:35 You are the ones who have been shown, so that you will know that God is the Supreme Being, and there is none besides Him.
4:32 You might inquire about times long past, going back to the time that God created man on earth, one end of the heavens to the other. See if anything as great as this has ever happened, or if the like has ever been heard.
4:33 Has any nation ever heard God speaking out of fire, as you have, and still survived?
4:34 Has God ever done miracles bringing one nation out of another nation with such tremendous miracles, signs, wonders, war, a mighty hand and outstretched arm, and terrifying phenomena, as God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
4:35 You are the ones who have been shown, so that you will know that God is the Supreme Being, and there is none besides Him.
So, first, for Jews to ever believe that G-d could possibly change hsi mind, he would have to declare this fact to the ENTIRE Jewish people again, not just a few guys. Second, the Torah here is infact Challenging every religion to ever exist on earth to even make the CLAIM that G-d spoke to everybody, let alone the fact. Find me one religion that makes such a Claim that G-D Himself spoke to EVERYBODY.
If I were to somehow be convinced to become Christian, I would have to A. Be Baptised, B. Reject my faith in Judaism, and C. Accept a new G-d upon myself that goes by the name of Jesus. If thats not a full conversion process like any other religion I don't know what is.
Unknown2005-03-15 00:46:54
Man It really annoys me with how the Catholic church pushes these doctrines in accordance with one's Salvation:
A.) No baptism is not necessary, I haven't been baptized. Baptism and Mass are symbolic of one's repentance and faith in the Lord.
B.) Um..I don't get this one because basically you shouldn't even have faith in Judaism I mean God is what matters. Christian for me implies a belief in Jesus as messiah and God. I pretty much look at what the Jewish prophets and or disciples of Jesus wrote down as the Word of God and for me thats what matters.
C.) It's the same God!
Also as I said its not about the "cool miracles". The passage you just gave about Elijah proves my point that resurrection's come from God. Now if Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and he was resurrected, therefore from God, then clearly what he says is true. No matter how you go on this, if Jesus didn't have a connection with God he simple wouldn't have been resurrected.
Look I don't know what your talking about with God declaring the New Covenant to only a select few individuals. Jesus went all over the place preaching to the Jews.
A.) No baptism is not necessary, I haven't been baptized. Baptism and Mass are symbolic of one's repentance and faith in the Lord.
B.) Um..I don't get this one because basically you shouldn't even have faith in Judaism I mean God is what matters. Christian for me implies a belief in Jesus as messiah and God. I pretty much look at what the Jewish prophets and or disciples of Jesus wrote down as the Word of God and for me thats what matters.
C.) It's the same God!
Also as I said its not about the "cool miracles". The passage you just gave about Elijah proves my point that resurrection's come from God. Now if Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and he was resurrected, therefore from God, then clearly what he says is true. No matter how you go on this, if Jesus didn't have a connection with God he simple wouldn't have been resurrected.
Look I don't know what your talking about with God declaring the New Covenant to only a select few individuals. Jesus went all over the place preaching to the Jews.
Daganev2005-03-15 01:25:51
Explain to me how I can both believe that Jesus fuffilled a covenant and that I am still bound by that covenant at the same time? Because thats what it would mean to be both Jewish and Christian.
In the story of the Elijah, it was a nameless boy who was ressurected, through Elijah, who was doing it in G-d's name.
Why does nobody worship that boy as a leader?
If Jesus was ressurected, what I would take that to be is a sign to the Romans that they can not repress the teaching of Torah in public, and a sign to the Jews to not be divisve amongst themselves, as the prophets told them over and over again.
My point was that I see no difference from the stories given between Jesus as a prophet and the thousands of other prophets that existed at that time trying to get the Jewish people to stop fighting eachother. The main difference, if Paul is to believed, is that Jesus claimed that he had a Whole new way of doing things, and that his prophecy was not prophecy.
If what you say is true, than G-d only told Jesus about the New Covenant, and then Jesus told everybody else. In the original giving of the Torah, G-d told EVERYBODY about the torah, and then Moses taught the details over time, which then got passed on through the ages. 3 things where told to Everybody. 1. G-d is the one who took us out of egypt, 2. There is only one G-d and there is no other god before him 3. G-d does not have an image, and one can not make an image of G-d. With all the explanations you have given, I do not see how Jesus does not break 2 and 3.
Given that only Jews have this tradition, it makes perfect sense to me that non Jewish people would intrepret things differntly and follow other paths in life. Keeping in mind that they prey to G-d and not to some corporal image of G-d.
As for being the same god, I would dissagree. Jews and Christians may both only believe in One god, but from what I have heard in Mass media and popular culture, the word god is describing two seperate things. This difference is best seen in the topic of "original sin" which to me is pure nonsense.
In the story of the Elijah, it was a nameless boy who was ressurected, through Elijah, who was doing it in G-d's name.
Why does nobody worship that boy as a leader?
If Jesus was ressurected, what I would take that to be is a sign to the Romans that they can not repress the teaching of Torah in public, and a sign to the Jews to not be divisve amongst themselves, as the prophets told them over and over again.
My point was that I see no difference from the stories given between Jesus as a prophet and the thousands of other prophets that existed at that time trying to get the Jewish people to stop fighting eachother. The main difference, if Paul is to believed, is that Jesus claimed that he had a Whole new way of doing things, and that his prophecy was not prophecy.
If what you say is true, than G-d only told Jesus about the New Covenant, and then Jesus told everybody else. In the original giving of the Torah, G-d told EVERYBODY about the torah, and then Moses taught the details over time, which then got passed on through the ages. 3 things where told to Everybody. 1. G-d is the one who took us out of egypt, 2. There is only one G-d and there is no other god before him 3. G-d does not have an image, and one can not make an image of G-d. With all the explanations you have given, I do not see how Jesus does not break 2 and 3.
Given that only Jews have this tradition, it makes perfect sense to me that non Jewish people would intrepret things differntly and follow other paths in life. Keeping in mind that they prey to G-d and not to some corporal image of G-d.
As for being the same god, I would dissagree. Jews and Christians may both only believe in One god, but from what I have heard in Mass media and popular culture, the word god is describing two seperate things. This difference is best seen in the topic of "original sin" which to me is pure nonsense.
Unknown2005-03-20 06:14:54
Jews should be christians as far as i'm concerned and in fact they were the first christians so to speak.
21 When Jesus left there, He withdrew to the area of Tyre and Sidon. 22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came and kept crying out, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly tormented by a demon." 23 Yet He did not say a word to her. So His disciples approached Him and urged Him, "Send her away, because she cries out after us." 24 He replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came, knelt before Him, and said, "Lord, help me!" 26 He answered, "It isn't right to take the children's bread and throw it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table!" 28 Then Jesus replied to her, "Woman, your faith is great. Let it be done for you as you want." And from that moment her daughter was cured. (Not sure which version Matthew 15: 21-28)
For example Jesus didn't take away the laws:
Then He said to them, "you wear a noble, pious expression in public, but God knows your evil hearts. Your pretense brings you honor from the people but it is an abomination in the sight of God. Until John the Baptist began to preach, the laws of Moses and messages of the prophets were your guides. And now eager multitudes are pressing in. But that doesn't mean that the Law has lost its force in even the smallest point. (The Book, Luke 16: 14-17)
Rather we are to fulfill the laws by faith as was the purpose:
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.†7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.†9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.†11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.†12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.†13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.†14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
(galatians 3: 1-10)
This makes a lot of sense and I've come see what Paul was saying here quite clearly. Basically I've met some Jew's who keep various traditions and Holy holidays, yet are agnostic and atheists.
As for noone worshiping the boy, well that's because the boy didn't resurrect himself. Jesus claimed He would resurrect himself and he did.
There's no reason to suppress the Torah. In fact there should be no division at all.
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (galatians 3)
First you have to understand that God came to earth in the form of a human body (Jesus). while at the same time being everywhere else. Therefore when Jesus is preaching, God is preaching and as thus God was telling everyone. So that takes care of number 2 and as for number 3, well ok the key here is that God is not a man.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)
In John it states that God became flesh and dwelt among us, again stressing the fact that God was still everywhere and can't be contained. But why do you claim that God cannot enter into our world in a human form?
Quoted from John Leithart:
The question Jesus poses in verses 41-44 is part of the same conversation (cf. "them" in v. 41). It is another response to the question about the resurrection. Jesus has shown that the resurrection is true in general, but the quotation from Psalm 110 is about one particular resurrection, His own, which will demonstrate that He is the One at the right hand of Yahweh. "Messiah" means much more than the Jews realize; the Messiah is not merely another human king in the line of David, but one who shares rule with Yahweh as David's Lord. The Psalm quotation ends with a warning to the Jews: The Messiah will vindicate Himself against His enemies.
I myself don't pay too much attention to mass media or pop culture and i'm not aware of what they are saying. As for orignal sin, well I find nothing wrong with it, but its not overly crucial. Another thing that the media maybe pushing that is defunct of any NT or OT basis is the whole Satan vs God thing which I think you addressed. That's really not a christian concept at all...
We pray to God in his entirety. If God were to make an image or representation of himself (Jesus), that still doesn't take away the fact that he's spirit. Thats the thing, God created the body which would be a representation of himself. God has no image formed by man is what the OT states. Thus Jesus the messiah being God is worthy of our worship.
21 When Jesus left there, He withdrew to the area of Tyre and Sidon. 22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came and kept crying out, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly tormented by a demon." 23 Yet He did not say a word to her. So His disciples approached Him and urged Him, "Send her away, because she cries out after us." 24 He replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came, knelt before Him, and said, "Lord, help me!" 26 He answered, "It isn't right to take the children's bread and throw it to their dogs." 27 "Yes, Lord," she said, "yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table!" 28 Then Jesus replied to her, "Woman, your faith is great. Let it be done for you as you want." And from that moment her daughter was cured. (Not sure which version Matthew 15: 21-28)
For example Jesus didn't take away the laws:
Then He said to them, "you wear a noble, pious expression in public, but God knows your evil hearts. Your pretense brings you honor from the people but it is an abomination in the sight of God. Until John the Baptist began to preach, the laws of Moses and messages of the prophets were your guides. And now eager multitudes are pressing in. But that doesn't mean that the Law has lost its force in even the smallest point. (The Book, Luke 16: 14-17)
Rather we are to fulfill the laws by faith as was the purpose:
Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher, You have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;" (Mark 12:29-32)
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.†7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.†9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.†11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.†12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.†13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.†14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
(galatians 3: 1-10)
This makes a lot of sense and I've come see what Paul was saying here quite clearly. Basically I've met some Jew's who keep various traditions and Holy holidays, yet are agnostic and atheists.
As for noone worshiping the boy, well that's because the boy didn't resurrect himself. Jesus claimed He would resurrect himself and he did.
There's no reason to suppress the Torah. In fact there should be no division at all.
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (galatians 3)
First you have to understand that God came to earth in the form of a human body (Jesus). while at the same time being everywhere else. Therefore when Jesus is preaching, God is preaching and as thus God was telling everyone. So that takes care of number 2 and as for number 3, well ok the key here is that God is not a man.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24)
In John it states that God became flesh and dwelt among us, again stressing the fact that God was still everywhere and can't be contained. But why do you claim that God cannot enter into our world in a human form?
Quoted from John Leithart:
The question Jesus poses in verses 41-44 is part of the same conversation (cf. "them" in v. 41). It is another response to the question about the resurrection. Jesus has shown that the resurrection is true in general, but the quotation from Psalm 110 is about one particular resurrection, His own, which will demonstrate that He is the One at the right hand of Yahweh. "Messiah" means much more than the Jews realize; the Messiah is not merely another human king in the line of David, but one who shares rule with Yahweh as David's Lord. The Psalm quotation ends with a warning to the Jews: The Messiah will vindicate Himself against His enemies.
I myself don't pay too much attention to mass media or pop culture and i'm not aware of what they are saying. As for orignal sin, well I find nothing wrong with it, but its not overly crucial. Another thing that the media maybe pushing that is defunct of any NT or OT basis is the whole Satan vs God thing which I think you addressed. That's really not a christian concept at all...
We pray to God in his entirety. If God were to make an image or representation of himself (Jesus), that still doesn't take away the fact that he's spirit. Thats the thing, God created the body which would be a representation of himself. God has no image formed by man is what the OT states. Thus Jesus the messiah being God is worthy of our worship.
Daganev2005-03-20 12:34:20
I'll be willing to entertain the idea that Jews should all believe in Jesus the day Christains believe Joseph Smith to be a True prophet and Follow the Book of Mormon.
Ask yourself, why are not all christians mormons? And that is the reason why Jews are not Christains.
Ask yourself, why are not all christians mormons? And that is the reason why Jews are not Christains.
Unknown2005-03-20 20:00:47
Did John Smith resurrect himself? no, John Smith actually did nothing for me to believe what he's stated. God brought the Jews out of egypt through Moses thus we are to believe Moses. Same applies to Jesus, he resurrected himself, thus he validated what he said.
There will always be men who make themselves special among the crowd and declare it in God's name, these are the false prophets your talking about and all they can do is talk really or maybe do even a few fancy tricks. That's not the case with Jesus. I mean I would really like to hear why you believe what Moses said as being from God and lets see if that's any different than why christians believe in Jesus.
There will always be men who make themselves special among the crowd and declare it in God's name, these are the false prophets your talking about and all they can do is talk really or maybe do even a few fancy tricks. That's not the case with Jesus. I mean I would really like to hear why you believe what Moses said as being from God and lets see if that's any different than why christians believe in Jesus.
Daganev2005-03-20 21:52:01
The difference is I have a direct oral tradition that my great grandfather from who knows how many generations back, saw G-d speak to the entire Jewish population. Not many, or most, or a select trustworthy few, or the righteious or the rich or the influential, but to ALL.
If someone can do miracles, I don't see what so special about a ressurection. Like I said before, Ressurections arn't all that special. Doctors do them 10 times a day. Did Jesus talk to a burning bush? Did Jesus find Nirvana? Its irrelevant, isn't it?
If someone can do miracles, I don't see what so special about a ressurection. Like I said before, Ressurections arn't all that special. Doctors do them 10 times a day. Did Jesus talk to a burning bush? Did Jesus find Nirvana? Its irrelevant, isn't it?
Unknown2005-03-21 04:27:29
I'm amazed your saying resurrection isn't that special. First off I'd like to see a doctor bring back a man who's died for 3 days and his body decomposing. Also if you say resurrection isn't anything special than why should anyone believe any of the prophets because again prophets used miracles to validate who they were. Did not Elijah in the passage you gave me, show to that woman that he was from God by resurrecting the boy.
Also the fact that God was heard by all the Jewish people at that time was I assume so they could understand that there was one God and obey him, pushing aside all doubt (I'm not aware where in the OT this happens). Now clearly every Jew heard about Jesus, his miracles and his message, but the fact that it wasn't so blatantly obvious as with your ancestors is so the concept of belief could be put into the equation. It's clear the Jewish people could believe God when he shows himself in such a clear way, but what if God was to speaking to them on their level.
I mean really, just like the Jews pushed aside the rest of the Prophets, I don't see how there not doing the same with Jesus. Perhaps this concept that God needs to show himself in such a grand way to mandate validation was what was preventing Jews from listening to the prophets who God was speaking through but on a human level.
To make such feats as irrelevant is to make irrelevant all that God has done throughout history.
P.S.
Can I get verse where God talks to the Jewish population.
Also the fact that God was heard by all the Jewish people at that time was I assume so they could understand that there was one God and obey him, pushing aside all doubt (I'm not aware where in the OT this happens). Now clearly every Jew heard about Jesus, his miracles and his message, but the fact that it wasn't so blatantly obvious as with your ancestors is so the concept of belief could be put into the equation. It's clear the Jewish people could believe God when he shows himself in such a clear way, but what if God was to speaking to them on their level.
I mean really, just like the Jews pushed aside the rest of the Prophets, I don't see how there not doing the same with Jesus. Perhaps this concept that God needs to show himself in such a grand way to mandate validation was what was preventing Jews from listening to the prophets who God was speaking through but on a human level.
To make such feats as irrelevant is to make irrelevant all that God has done throughout history.
P.S.
Can I get verse where God talks to the Jewish population.
Daganev2005-03-21 21:24:42
It takes some critical reading to see this, but its not an issue of "interpretation" as much as paying attention to the words written.
Amongst Prophets, Ressurection is not limited to Jesus. Amongst modern doctors, Ressurction is limited to a time frame, but that ressurection still happens. I don't know if its folklore or true, but its said about quite a few people throughout history that thier bodies did not decay untill a year after they were burried.
And yes its takes G-d to come down to all the Jews for jews to believe G-d is "changing his mind" but it does not take G-d speaking to everybody for us to know what is G-d's word. If you notice in the 10 commandments, the first 2 commandments are written in first person, the last 7 in third person, in relation to G-d. So G-d said 2 things to all of the Jewish people, one , that G-d took us out of Egypt (NOT MOSES, infact Moses made things worse for jews in egypt) and 2, "20:3 Do not have any other gods before Me.
20:4 Do not represent gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land.
20:5 Do not bow down to or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship. Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sin of the fathers for descendants, to the third and fourth .
20:6 But for those who love Me and keep My commandments, I show love for thousands . " So why would God send himself in the form of Jesus if he knows Jews are not going to listen to him? While the earliest Christians might have been Jews, the Majority of christian converts came from pagans, and there is no doubt in my mind that that was G-ds plan and method of moving people toward the Truth about the world, but Whats good for one group of people is not necessarily good for another group of people.
You may see it differently, but to Me praying to Jesus while you have an image of him up on a cross during your services, violates this most basic of principles.
QUOTE
The Ten Commandments
19:1 In the third month after the Israelites left Egypt, on the first of the month, they came to the desert of Sinai.
19:2 They had departed from Rephidim and had arrived in the Sinai Desert, camping in the wilderness. Israel camped opposite the mountain.
19:3 Moses went up to God. God called to him from the mountain and said, 'This is what you must say to the family of Jacob and tell the Israelites:
19:4 'You saw what I did in Egypt, carrying you on eagles' wings and bringing you to Me.
19:5 Now if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be My special treasure among all nations, even though all the world is Mine.
19:6 You will be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to Me.' These are the words that you must relate to the Israelites.'
19:7 Moses came and summoned the elders of the people, conveying to them all that God had said.
19:8 All the people answered as one and said, 'All that God has spoken, we will do.'
Moses brought the people's reply back to God.
19:9 God said to Moses, 'I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that all the people will hear when I speak to you. They will then believe in you forever.'
Moses told God the people's response .
19:10 God said to Moses, 'Go to the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow. Let them immerse their clothing.
19:11 They will then be ready for the third day, for on the third day, God will descend on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
19:12 'Set a boundary for the people around , and tell them to be careful not to climb the mountain, or to touch its edge. Anyone touching the mountain will be put to death.
19:13 You will not have to lay a hand on him for he will be stoned or cast down. Neither man nor beast will be allowed to live. But when the trumpet is sounded with a long blast, they will then be allowed to climb the mountain.'
19:14 Moses went down from the mountain to the people. He sanctified them, and they immersed their clothing.
19:15 Moses said to the people, 'Keep yourselves in readiness for three days. Do not come near a woman.'
19:16 The third day arrived. There was thunder and lightning in the morning, with a heavy cloud on the mountain, and an extremely loud blast of a ram's horn. The people in the camp trembled.
19:17 Moses led the people out of the camp toward the Divine Presence. They stood transfixed at the foot of the mountain.
19:18 Mount Sinai was all in smoke because of the Presence that had come down on it. God was in the fire, and its smoke went up like the smoke of a lime kiln. The entire mountain trembled violently.
19:19 There was the sound of a ram's horn, increasing in volume to a great degree. Moses spoke, and God replied with a Voice.
19:20 God came down on Mount Sinai, to the peak of the mountain. He summoned Moses to the mountain peak, and Moses climbed up.
19:21 God said to Moses, 'Go back down and warn the people that they must not cross the boundary in order to see the Divine, because this will cause many to die.
19:22 The priests, who come near the Divine must also sanctify themselves, or else God will send destruction among them.'
19:23 Moses replied to God, 'The people cannot climb Mount Sinai. You already warned them to set a boundary around the mountain and to declare it sacred.'
19:24 God said to him, 'Go down. You can then come up along with Aaron. But the priests and the people must not violate the boundary to go up to the Divine; if they do, He will send destruction among them.'
19:25 Moses went down to the people and conveyed this to them.
The First Two Commandments
20:1 God spoke all these words, saying:
20:2 I am God your Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery.
20:3 Do not have any other gods before Me.
20:4 Do not represent gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land.
20:5 Do not bow down to or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship. Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sin of the fathers for descendants, to the third and fourth .
20:6 But for those who love Me and keep My commandments, I show love for thousands .
The Third Commandment
20:7 Do not take the name of God your Lord in vain. God will not allow the one who takes His name in vain to go unpunished.
The Fourth Commandment
20:8 Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.
20:9 You can work during the six weekdays and do all your tasks.
20:10 But Saturday is the Sabbath to God your Lord. Do not do anything that constitutes work. you, your son, your daughter, your slave, your maid, your animal, and the foreigner in your gates.
20:11 It was during the six weekdays that God made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on Saturday. God therefore blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The Fifth Commandment
20:12 Honor your father and mother. You will then live long on the land that God your Lord is giving you.
The Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, and Ninth Commandments
20:13 Do not commit murder.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not steal.
Do not testify as a false witness against your neighbor.
The Tenth Commandment, Envy
20:14 Do not be envious of your neighbor's house.
Do not be envious of your neighbor's wife, his slave, his maid, his ox, his donkey, or anything else that is your neighbor's.
Aftermath of the Ten Commandments
20:15 All the people saw the sounds, the flames, the blast of the ram's horn, and the mountain smoking. The people trembled when they saw it, keeping their distance.
20:16 They said to Moses, 'You speak to us, and we will listen. But let God not speak with us any more, for we will die if He does.'
20:17 'Do not be afraid,' replied Moses to the people. 'God only came to raise you up. His fear will then be on your faces, and you will not sin.'
20:18 The people kept their distance while Moses entered the mist where the Divine was .
Concluding Rules
20:19 God said to Moses: This is what you must tell the Israelites:
You have seen that I spoke to you from heaven.
20:20 Do not make a representation of anything that is with Me. Do not make silver or gold gods for yourselves.
20:21 Make an earthen altar for Me. You can sacrifice your burnt offerings, your peace offerings, your sheep and your cattle on it. Wherever I allow My name to be mentioned, I will come to you and bless you.
20:22 When you eventually build a stone altar for Me, do not build it out of cut stone. Your sword will have been lifted against it, you will have profaned it.
20:23 Do not climb up to My altar with steps, so that your nakedness not be revealed on it.
19:1 In the third month after the Israelites left Egypt, on the first of the month, they came to the desert of Sinai.
19:2 They had departed from Rephidim and had arrived in the Sinai Desert, camping in the wilderness. Israel camped opposite the mountain.
19:3 Moses went up to God. God called to him from the mountain and said, 'This is what you must say to the family of Jacob and tell the Israelites:
19:4 'You saw what I did in Egypt, carrying you on eagles' wings and bringing you to Me.
19:5 Now if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be My special treasure among all nations, even though all the world is Mine.
19:6 You will be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to Me.' These are the words that you must relate to the Israelites.'
19:7 Moses came and summoned the elders of the people, conveying to them all that God had said.
19:8 All the people answered as one and said, 'All that God has spoken, we will do.'
Moses brought the people's reply back to God.
19:9 God said to Moses, 'I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that all the people will hear when I speak to you. They will then believe in you forever.'
Moses told God the people's response .
19:10 God said to Moses, 'Go to the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow. Let them immerse their clothing.
19:11 They will then be ready for the third day, for on the third day, God will descend on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
19:12 'Set a boundary for the people around , and tell them to be careful not to climb the mountain, or to touch its edge. Anyone touching the mountain will be put to death.
19:13 You will not have to lay a hand on him for he will be stoned or cast down. Neither man nor beast will be allowed to live. But when the trumpet is sounded with a long blast, they will then be allowed to climb the mountain.'
19:14 Moses went down from the mountain to the people. He sanctified them, and they immersed their clothing.
19:15 Moses said to the people, 'Keep yourselves in readiness for three days. Do not come near a woman.'
19:16 The third day arrived. There was thunder and lightning in the morning, with a heavy cloud on the mountain, and an extremely loud blast of a ram's horn. The people in the camp trembled.
19:17 Moses led the people out of the camp toward the Divine Presence. They stood transfixed at the foot of the mountain.
19:18 Mount Sinai was all in smoke because of the Presence that had come down on it. God was in the fire, and its smoke went up like the smoke of a lime kiln. The entire mountain trembled violently.
19:19 There was the sound of a ram's horn, increasing in volume to a great degree. Moses spoke, and God replied with a Voice.
19:20 God came down on Mount Sinai, to the peak of the mountain. He summoned Moses to the mountain peak, and Moses climbed up.
19:21 God said to Moses, 'Go back down and warn the people that they must not cross the boundary in order to see the Divine, because this will cause many to die.
19:22 The priests, who come near the Divine must also sanctify themselves, or else God will send destruction among them.'
19:23 Moses replied to God, 'The people cannot climb Mount Sinai. You already warned them to set a boundary around the mountain and to declare it sacred.'
19:24 God said to him, 'Go down. You can then come up along with Aaron. But the priests and the people must not violate the boundary to go up to the Divine; if they do, He will send destruction among them.'
19:25 Moses went down to the people and conveyed this to them.
The First Two Commandments
20:1 God spoke all these words, saying:
20:2 I am God your Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery.
20:3 Do not have any other gods before Me.
20:4 Do not represent gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land.
20:5 Do not bow down to or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship. Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sin of the fathers for descendants, to the third and fourth .
20:6 But for those who love Me and keep My commandments, I show love for thousands .
The Third Commandment
20:7 Do not take the name of God your Lord in vain. God will not allow the one who takes His name in vain to go unpunished.
The Fourth Commandment
20:8 Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.
20:9 You can work during the six weekdays and do all your tasks.
20:10 But Saturday is the Sabbath to God your Lord. Do not do anything that constitutes work. you, your son, your daughter, your slave, your maid, your animal, and the foreigner in your gates.
20:11 It was during the six weekdays that God made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on Saturday. God therefore blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
The Fifth Commandment
20:12 Honor your father and mother. You will then live long on the land that God your Lord is giving you.
The Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, and Ninth Commandments
20:13 Do not commit murder.
Do not commit adultery.
Do not steal.
Do not testify as a false witness against your neighbor.
The Tenth Commandment, Envy
20:14 Do not be envious of your neighbor's house.
Do not be envious of your neighbor's wife, his slave, his maid, his ox, his donkey, or anything else that is your neighbor's.
Aftermath of the Ten Commandments
20:15 All the people saw the sounds, the flames, the blast of the ram's horn, and the mountain smoking. The people trembled when they saw it, keeping their distance.
20:16 They said to Moses, 'You speak to us, and we will listen. But let God not speak with us any more, for we will die if He does.'
20:17 'Do not be afraid,' replied Moses to the people. 'God only came to raise you up. His fear will then be on your faces, and you will not sin.'
20:18 The people kept their distance while Moses entered the mist where the Divine was .
Concluding Rules
20:19 God said to Moses: This is what you must tell the Israelites:
You have seen that I spoke to you from heaven.
20:20 Do not make a representation of anything that is with Me. Do not make silver or gold gods for yourselves.
20:21 Make an earthen altar for Me. You can sacrifice your burnt offerings, your peace offerings, your sheep and your cattle on it. Wherever I allow My name to be mentioned, I will come to you and bless you.
20:22 When you eventually build a stone altar for Me, do not build it out of cut stone. Your sword will have been lifted against it, you will have profaned it.
20:23 Do not climb up to My altar with steps, so that your nakedness not be revealed on it.
Amongst Prophets, Ressurection is not limited to Jesus. Amongst modern doctors, Ressurction is limited to a time frame, but that ressurection still happens. I don't know if its folklore or true, but its said about quite a few people throughout history that thier bodies did not decay untill a year after they were burried.
And yes its takes G-d to come down to all the Jews for jews to believe G-d is "changing his mind" but it does not take G-d speaking to everybody for us to know what is G-d's word. If you notice in the 10 commandments, the first 2 commandments are written in first person, the last 7 in third person, in relation to G-d. So G-d said 2 things to all of the Jewish people, one , that G-d took us out of Egypt (NOT MOSES, infact Moses made things worse for jews in egypt) and 2, "20:3 Do not have any other gods before Me.
20:4 Do not represent gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land.
20:5 Do not bow down to or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship. Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sin of the fathers for descendants, to the third and fourth .
20:6 But for those who love Me and keep My commandments, I show love for thousands . " So why would God send himself in the form of Jesus if he knows Jews are not going to listen to him? While the earliest Christians might have been Jews, the Majority of christian converts came from pagans, and there is no doubt in my mind that that was G-ds plan and method of moving people toward the Truth about the world, but Whats good for one group of people is not necessarily good for another group of people.
You may see it differently, but to Me praying to Jesus while you have an image of him up on a cross during your services, violates this most basic of principles.
Daganev2005-03-31 00:42:12
So I went to the bookstore, cause I always do after lunch and found this book sitting in the middle of the store under new releases.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...385510217&itm=1
It should answer all your questions about Jews and Jesus. I read the first 2 chapters and was actually impressed because this guy knew what he was talking about. (i.e. I agreed with him, and he claims to have personal experience)
Incase the link doesn't work, the book is called "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History"
Surprisingly, Amazon.com didn't know of the books existance but Barnes and Nobles did.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...385510217&itm=1
It should answer all your questions about Jews and Jesus. I read the first 2 chapters and was actually impressed because this guy knew what he was talking about. (i.e. I agreed with him, and he claims to have personal experience)
Incase the link doesn't work, the book is called "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History"
Surprisingly, Amazon.com didn't know of the books existance but Barnes and Nobles did.
Unknown2005-04-02 22:17:34
Daganev thanks for everything.
That book was quite a find and you got me to ask some tough questions.
By the way i've started to study Judaism, and have become a noahide myself.
On top of the two sites you mentioned (JewsforJudaism and Jewfaq), here's a great one as well:
messiahtruth
That book was quite a find and you got me to ask some tough questions.
By the way i've started to study Judaism, and have become a noahide myself.
On top of the two sites you mentioned (JewsforJudaism and Jewfaq), here's a great one as well:
messiahtruth
Unknown2005-05-21 22:28:15
so everyone's done debating 
.
.tarquin2005-05-26 05:39:02
QUOTE(Alyvia Gladheon @ Feb 8 2005, 08:21 AM)
That's the point I was making that led to this topic being opened. People say evolution is thoery, people says creation is theory. Why is evolution given weeks worth of study in a high school biology class and evolution is given a column? Until anything is proven, I feel it should be given equal class time.
44265
Okay if we are learning about say the universe in science, are we going to learn every single different individual theory about our universe, hmmmm I really don't think that we would have time. If you feel that christian creationism should be given equal class time, so should every single other religion, because they have just as much proof as the christian religion - believing.
I think as a side note it would be Sooo fun to learn about different relgions idea of creationism, like Balinese-Hindu, and Paegan.
Daganev2005-05-26 11:08:34
QUOTE(tarquin @ May 25 2005, 09:39 PM)
Okay if we are learning about say the universe in science, are we going to learn every single different individual theory about our universe, hmmmm I really don't think that we would have time. If you feel that christian creationism should be given equal class time, so should every single other religion, because they have just as much proof as the christian religion - believing.
I think as a side note it would be Sooo fun to learn about different relgions idea of creationism, like Balinese-Hindu, and Paegan.
I think as a side note it would be Sooo fun to learn about different relgions idea of creationism, like Balinese-Hindu, and Paegan.
124695
Unlike creation stories which all cultures and various religions have... "Creationism" is not a judeo-christian concept.
Its a scientific theory that states that there was some initial cause of the universe that had an intelgent design concept.
The more I read about this the more I'm convinced that whats currently taught in highschoools is more religion than science. (read this weeks Discover magazine for example)
Elryn2005-05-26 12:06:10
Isn't Discover magazine a christian publication?
What about recent articles in credible scientific journals?
What about recent articles in credible scientific journals?
Daganev2005-05-26 19:03:02
WHAT!? Ummm no.
http://www.discover.com/
How the hell did you come to the conclusion that Discover is a Christian magazine?
Its like Popular Mechanics, but for bigger science stuff.
The article that I was refering to was an article where someone is trying to argue the basic premise of how Quatum Mechanics and Gravity work and hitting most of his obstacles from old teachers and scientists who are explaining to him that he has no reason to question the premise.
http://www.discover.com/
How the hell did you come to the conclusion that Discover is a Christian magazine?
Its like Popular Mechanics, but for bigger science stuff.
The article that I was refering to was an article where someone is trying to argue the basic premise of how Quatum Mechanics and Gravity work and hitting most of his obstacles from old teachers and scientists who are explaining to him that he has no reason to question the premise.
Torak2005-05-26 21:50:48
I am not a firm beleiver in either concept, but I would lean more towards a religious side for the simple fact that evolution is illogical. If we evolved then why are there no other species with the capabilities we possess? There is no logical way that one species could so rapidly evolve compared to another such as say ..Apes. I would lean more towards it if another species possessed the same brain capabilties we do(Such as inventing..) and things to that sort. Meanwhile there HAS been biblical proof, although I beleive in something different then most religions. Anyways thats my 4 cents.
EDIT: No I did not read any post aside from the first and could be steering completely into something different.
EDIT: No I did not read any post aside from the first and could be steering completely into something different.
Daganev2005-05-26 22:56:00
I just want to respond by asking What is Elyrn smoking thinking discover is a christian magazine... and why he would think I would ever read such rubbish?
Elryn2005-05-27 02:27:03
My mistake, I looked at Discovery magazine.
... Oops!
What is the name of the article?
... Oops!
What is the name of the article?
Daganev2005-05-27 02:36:05
Its the main one, have to read it in the magazine or sign up to be an online member.
Why electrons can be in two places at once but we can't. Its actually rather cool. He thinks in 4 years he'll have a definite answer.
His basic theory is that gravity yanks items into only one location, just like an electron gets yanked into its lowest powered orbit.
Why electrons can be in two places at once but we can't. Its actually rather cool. He thinks in 4 years he'll have a definite answer.
His basic theory is that gravity yanks items into only one location, just like an electron gets yanked into its lowest powered orbit.
