Oh yeah, congratulations Ceres and Thaddeus, for killing a random Magnagoran who I've -never- seen in any hostilities while he logs in on Astral

I said that part. Ah, the poem thing was helping with the Fae girl, yes. And I disagreed with the unenemying myself, but that's actually besides the point anyway. I'll ask again, what recently has Magnagora done for Celest, or vice versa, that would cause this to be justified? That was the point of the thread, and it hasn't really been answered yet.

A) There doesn't need to be a justification if there is no actual alliance. Many have stated there is no alliance. You say you read every post, and there are two threads on this matter, but you still don't seem to hear this part.

2) Seren members have been raiding Magnagoran villages every time I've been in the realms lately. Serenwilde has proved untrustworthy and prone to betrayal. When you anger a bear, expect some retaliation. If you've pissed us off enough that we're willing to help Celest get back at you, maybe your 'government' should reconsider the control it exerts on raiders?

C) You are not immune to the consequences of your actions, raiding or political. Serenwilde is not the end all be all, despite their monopoly on Alchemy and the political freedom it has given them.

Nonetheless, though there may not have been a FORMAL alliance, it's still true that Celestians were helping Magnagorans fight against us, and Magnagorans were helping Celestians fight and influence against us. While it may not be WRITTEN as an alliance, the spirit's still there. And the last two points you make are, again, heartily agreed with. I KNOW we're not immune to consequences. What you're confusing is me thinking that Magnagora and Celest shouldn't beat up on us, which I DO NOT THINK because they would be perfectly justified in doing so, and me thinking that they shouldn't team up to do it. You're addressing the wrong argument entirely.

It goes both ways, doesn't it? If you betray and/or piss of members of Serenwilde, why should that go without retaliation?

What is funny is when the bear mows down a herd of foxes on its way to the honeycomb, then beats it chest and whines when the foxes come back and bite it on the way home.

Serenwilde taking allies was due to circumstances. Like Shiri said, at one point our strongest allies were Magnagora, and Serenwilde probably would've remained allies with them if the war hadn't started. In comes the war, Serenwilde and Magnagora are fighting, Celest has a common enemy in Magnagora and an alliance between Serenwilde and Celest happens.

Now, the alliances were made because they were needed. How did the general population of Serenwilde fealt towards these alliances is another. If anything, it was the government of Serenwilde that concreted the aliances, the population just went along because in the end it seemed like it was the correct thing to do to, or else Serenwilde would be constantly be found losing as opposed to surviving (even through histories, the main thing for the Serenwilde was survival). But, Serenwilde hasn't been bouncing city to city as if Serenwilde were a common harlot, changing patrons after every nightstand. The given circumstances allowed for the alliances to occur, different circumstances brought within them different scenarios.

Between Magnagora and Celest allying, against Serenwilde... I am not sure what happened, but by what I've read, I can say that apparently Celest just took advantage of Magnagora attacking Serenwilde, it was convinient for Celest to do so. Basically, if Magnagora and Celest had any cooperation, it was one that was born amidst the heat of the battle for Southgard: Serenwilde and Celest both trying to acquire the village, Magnagora simply attacking Serenwilde, and Celest taking advantage from this to make sure Serenwilde didn't get it.

For every excuse and explanation you can come up with why its ok for your organization to ally with another oganization, there are three other excuses for why your enemies and allies are teaming up to kill you.

Welcome to the world of the diplomat.

Sadly, I fear this thread, like all the others on this topic are going to be taken IC and everybody is going to forget about the poor adders.

Alas, all the baby adders have already died and none were released in the Oleanvir Valley!

Yeah. I was posting this in hopes of finding out said explanation. Ah well.

Shiri, the explanation has been given not once, but 3,256 times.

There was no alliance, and Magangora didn't want serenwilde to get another village, and Celest was happy to accept help to get themselves a village back.

Actually, I'm a member of Raezon's Order, and we're secretly siphoning power out of the Pool of Stars to a conduit in the Akashica Institute in an attempt to pry open the seals binding Kethuru by way of a manipulation of the Akashic Record. So this whole bit with the village was just a plot to ensure a proper amount of power was pumped into the Pool to keep the planar link active enough to maintain transfer.

Pesky Serenwilders.

...well, in lieu of a better reason, that will have to do.

Believing that Rhysus is a Raezonite trying to release Kethuru is more agreeable for you than believing that Celestians would simply take advantage of an opportune situation?

I wasn't serious, you know. But I've come to the conclusion that there is no really good explanation for it, or someone would have brought it up long before now. (Before Daganev posts again - yes, that's been said multiple times, but so has the counter to it.)

Exactly what I've been saying! It was all a plot! *paranoia*

Seriously though, I don't think the Mags did that at random, they did it so this would happen. The Mags aren't stupid, it would make a lot of sense to do what they did, and it all worked very much to their advantage. I'll hold that it was intentional, give them the credit they deserve.

Explanation for Magnagora's actions: It benefits them more having Celest have the village than Serenwilde. Celest doesn't have the pesky alchemy ban ability that Serenwilde does when they enemy people for raiding to retrieve the miners for themselves. If Serenwilde controlled both mining villages, then it would probably end up being another war like scenario between the two, this time based off metal trade.

Serenwilde didn't need a reason to take Rockholm according to Gregori, why should Celest need a reason to take Southgard. Because it's not in their spirit to watch as their enemies brawl around them with their competition? Last I checked, Celest really wasn't in the place to allow their moral superiority to over ride their sense of self preservation when it came down to it.

Erm... sorry to hear that about the snakes?

Me confused.

My understanding was that Serenwilde was basically invited to take the village; Celestians had sent no one to influence and had basically left the door open for us.

*shrug*

Considering that Magnagora can't take Rockholm, I cannot imagine any situation where Celest would be induced to let Serenwilde take it.

That said, it looks like everybody acted in their own self-interest here.

Damned Guido and Stangmar killed the adders I raised in Magnagora. Dumbasses.

What did SirVLCIV just say? That Celest and Magnagora weren't allied, they just happened to be working alongside one another for mutually beneficial purposes for a few minutes?

Why is it no one can ever understand that? Everyone keeps going on this bullcrap criticism that Serenwilde is ignoring its history and not roleplaying because we use the cities against one another now and then.

I mean, really, I understand we're trying to fool you into thinking there's more to it, but do you have to be so quick to fall for it so fully, that you conclude that we're ignoring our history?

We spent a long time in isolation, but we decided to come out. Coming out means interacting with the cities. How else would you say we do so that's consistent with our history, other than to never actually ally with them, but to play them against one another, and use them?

I mean, really. When are we going to get past this?