If only the requirements for gaining and keeping novices were that simple...

Isn't this entire discussion about novice counts and topguilds a complete non sequitur (to steal your term) to the question of whether the Ur'guard skillsets in combination are too powerful?

How many times has it been said that many people are attracted to "forestal" guilds because the majority of people shy away from the extremes currently represented by the cities?

Err.. I've seen alot more then that Daganev, Daevos and Valek have done 25 guards at least alone.

To use your own arguments (or maybe it was Tuek's I keep confusing you two)
I'm a credit whore
I'm overpowered
My skills arn't

And I have yet to go to astral and not die eventually. But I'm not such a cunning strategist when it comes to kill monsters. I do however love tanking eels, it makes me feel so strong. Rawr 20 eels at once, I love it!

Terenas stated exactly what I have been saying albeit in fewer words. Ur'guard with fullplate have access to putrefaction and with it, they become ungodly tanks to the extreme that it outpaces any other class including other Knights. Furthermore, I don't care nor does it matter who does or does not have putrefaction. The point of this thread is that an Ur'guard can potentially achieve it and thus be FAR TANKIER than any other class because they likewise cannot achieve such. My point is that they have it too easy. In fact, I would call this imbalanced. Here's why:

Whereas Lusternia has an exremely advanced combat system, the bashing system is nowhere close. Certain skills are dealt out to classes for combat purposes that end up doubling in the bash field. Ur'guard are meant to be very powerful and tanky warriors in combat. I'll give you that... but then again, most of that comes at a cost. For example, surge cuts your mana down very low so in combat... this is just screaming for Absolve/Wrack/Toadcurse. In bashing, however, there is no penalty. Surge is 100% beneficial.

Thus, tweaks often need to be done to ensure that the combat abilities of classes don't push them too far ahead in the bashing field. For example, imagine if my Fae could help me bashing. The creature I am fighting would be getting afflicted with constant sleep, afflictions, etc. This isn't the case. However, other classes that lack these more detailed combat techniques (Ur'guard) and have skills designed to make them withstand a great deal of damage in combat (putrefaction, full plate, etc.) add up to be too excessive bashing.

One huge mistake that I see people making in this thread is that they are trying to relate combat to bashing. They are two separate entities. They work differently. Simply because a class is good at this or that in combat does not imply that they should therefore be better bashers.

a) THe ONLY use for surge is bashing. Its useless in combat because of focus mind and focus body. and ALL warriors get surge.

All the other points have allready been argued against.

Not to mention in lusternia, unlike other muds, most monsters you bash also give a ton of other afflictions, and Ur'guard have no healing abilities to get rid of those afflictions outside of herbs and vials.

If ur'guard are better at bashing, its only because they spend more to be so.

Yet again, you have no idea what you are talking about. All warriors have surge. They do not have surge with purefaction, etc (hence the point of this thread and Ur'guard being too overpowered in terms of bashing). Also, surge can be useful in battle if you don't have a race that has terrible intelligence so you have enough mana left over... I realize that Tae'dae are indeed a terrible race. You might no be able to use surge in combat but Brood Viscanti or Dracnari, etc. can.

Furthermore, most monsters on Astral -do not- give lots of afflictions:

Goats: No afflictions (except prone which I don't count)
Bulls: No afflictions
Fesix: deafness + fear (everyone can compose, everyone can apply health to head)
Mitran: fear (everyone can compose)
Eagles deafness
Virgins: Blackout (no class can cure this except with allheale)
Lobstrosities: No afflictions
Urns: no afflictions

On the other planes, there are creatures that do give afflictions but there are plenty that do not. And take say... a Moondancer with Hexes. The only healing ability available takes 3p to use so.... I expect that a Moondancer with Hexes bashing would also use potions and herbs.

Wow, I don't know what your fighting, but I get tons of bleeding and broken limbs when I fight on astral.

If it wasn't for the afflictions, I would have no problem surviving up there.

Here is some news, which you've been so smart to overlook, Putre is mid-necro. Not everyone manages to get Putre. Fullplate has to be near trans forging, so not everyone has this luxury. Normally, for knights to even make good use of putre they need to be bulky races, or the Putre becomes a nuisance... also, it takes a mass amount of effort for a warrior to begin from novice and reach a good level to where he needs to be a tank. And I am talking about normal players, not those who have hordes of credits. Over all, Ur'Guard being a warrior-type, are slower to level. But once they are a good level... get their equipment, get their act into gear... hey, they CAN be the best bashers out there.

The fact that Putrefaction is too powerful doesn't really affect other knightclass because warriors overall are good at bashing. Non-warriors are supposed to be lowsy at bashing, yep, I hope you read this closely. Non-warriors are very good at some things warriors are poor at... warriors excel on other areas non-warriors need to drag. But the breakthrough in here is that anyone who knows their skills, is well equipped can be good at bashing. You can't constantly try to compare yourself with the most fit, because you are in a completely different current. And still, you could improve your bashing if you changed race... or better, become an Ur'Guard if you so much idolize them.


You cleverly constantly use Daevos and Valek as examples, two people who have been proven to be exceptional in Lusternia and I am pretty sure they were Beta-Testers, so they should know Lusternia more in-depth than someone like me. So, why constantly use Daevos and Valek as examples when they are persons who have clearly invested much more in Lusternia therefore will be able to be very good in any class they choose?



No, the Ur'Guard are meant to be powerful and tanky warriors overall. Warriors are meant to be tanky and powerful overall... Always cosidering they engage whatever they need to kill. Also, Surge is very high on Athletics, don't constantly use Daevos and Valek as examples, because not everyone is Valek or Daevos. Being slow, can be deadly for bashing as a warrior (Ur'Guard if you keep insisting), but that is the price to pay for being tanky.



I thought one of your fae helped you in bashing, to the point it was so effective that it got downgraded. Was it the pooka? As a warrior, I would love to have a falcon to help me in combat and if it could be pooka like. The only thing an Ur'guard has in favor is that they are tanky, they don't have any complex gadgets nor stupendous retreat skills, nor anything like that. Nor do the other warrior class.




One huge mistake I see you making is trying to "balance" something that is meant to excell in the physical department and place it at the same level of someone that like or not is supposed to excell in distance combat. Combat and bashing may be seperate entities, but here is the premise... or you excel on one area or the other, or you suck at either of them. Warriors need to be very careful when fighting non-warriors, because they aren't as straightforward as us, and a warrior depends entirely on damage in here... That is another big difference as why warriors are so good at physical... we can take damage we can deal damage. You could too, if you went dwarf.

I have a proposal, why don't the divines strip Moondancers of Wiccan, Ur'Guard from necromancy, force moondancers need equipment, swords, vials, armour to actually begin considering bashing or hunting?

Edit: Corrected something.

You missed a huge point in my post that you quoted. Read it next time before quoting it. My argument isn't that EVERY SINGLE Ur'guard is better at bashing than EVERY SINGLE non-Ur'guard. My point is that the class has the ability to obtain abilities that make it better... far better... than other classes. To break it down even further so we don't miss it again:

Since X-abilities can be obtained to make Ur'guard EXTREMELY/Overpowered better bashers than ALL OTHER classes then X-abilities make the Ur'guard in combination overpowered. It doesn't matter who has these abilities and who does not. It doesn't matter that novices do not have these abilities. What matters is that it -can- be done (and is being done by several people).

Furthermore, please learn about your things before rambling. The pooka has never had any impact with regards to bashing. Furthermore, how well a class does in combat should have nothing to do with how it works bashing. They are two different systems entirely.

As a trill knight, with more int than most, I still haven't been able to use surge in combat. Sparkleberry doesn't cover the loss from focus body, the occasional focus mind and clotting even against other knights.

It could be your level. Once you are 75-80, it should be more viable.

I don't like all this complaining, from either side, but I do want to address this often repeated pouty statement, but I won't try and derail the topic too much. All the talk of city warriors not being able to reach the higher planes on their own, is completely false.

The ravenwood is open to anyone to use who can use an Ethereal gate. The two archways from Ethereal to Water/Earth are open to anyone who can use an Elemental gate. You can then use your nexii to travel upwards as far as you like. Providing you have the necessary planar skills for each level, you can get there easily.

However, ALL Seren are limited to Water/Earth until they reach TRANSCENDANT planar. Not to mention that I believe now you can put guards at the two nexii on other planes, which hinders travel if a Seren wants to reach Astral but is enemied to both cities, while we can only guard most of Ethereal with players. I disagree with the main argument of this thread, but I just wanted to point out that this particular argument is completely false.

As you wish, Narsrim.... at your request... It was the nymph that pacifies creatures. Maybe not all, but hey... that is an mob that helps you bashing. And I am sure you have many other mobs that assist to. A warrior needs to go solo, be careful and be tanky.

Also, your initial rambling was targeted at Ur'Guard overall. So it doesn't matter whether you care or not if every Ur'Guard has the skills that allow them to be amazing at bashing or not. The fact is, that not everyone has the skills, and just few with enough lessons can get it (i.e. Daevos and Valek, your excuses to base your complain).

It doesn't matter whether Ur'Guard can be better at bashing than other classes. It is quite difficult to begin bashing, as a Ur'Guard to begin with, and even more difficult to get any of the skills you so terrible keep implying make Ur'Guard god-like at bashing. Like I've suggested, turn Ur'Guard that way you'll stop idolizing them and insteand idolize yourself. Also, it is of crucial importance whether a skill is used by the majority or not, if not that skill is basically inactive... don't go making judgements on accounts of only two individuals.

And if you dare talking about bashing, you have to take into consideration that Warriors are meant to rule bashing over Wiccans/Druids/Guardian/Mages. That is what makes bulky race warriors so hype. Ur'Guard happen to have skills that make them better than other Warriors too. Serenguard has skills that make them functional in group attacks, or more evasive in one against one... You speak of balance. How foolish is that? When everything is different, and I am telling you. You excell in one thing and have to be lame at the other, this is a general rule.

Like I told you, your complains about Ur'Guard being better at bashing than you is just as lame as those people that constantly complain that Moondancers is overpowered. That is how things are... One group excels on something where the other one is lame.

If you keep whining how Ur'Guard have the powerful skills they have.... then concede to those that complain that Moondancers are overpowered and ask the Divines to eliminate Necro from the Ur'Guard and Wiccan from Moondancers. Then you will have your so much acclaimed "balance".

Also, difference is all that is supposed to be. Be it combat or bashing. A mage/guardian is completely different in combat than a warrior, a warrior is completely different than those two in bashing. A warrior has the upperhand on dealing damage and resisting damage, that is what is the basis for both it's combat and bashing. Mages/warriors are awesome for area attacks, area control, group attacks, are famous for not being as resistant to physical damage. So you can't expect to be a balance between the two groups physical and non-physical, when an "imbalance" is supposed to be the dominator between the two groups in the diverse areas.

Edit: This thread should've been started in the Idiots forum... It is a completely ridiculous complain.

Honestly, I really think you just quote posts before reading them. As I have stated earlier in this thread, the nymph does not work on Astral. It never has. And for the record, the nymph pacifies a creature such that it falls asleep and untargets you. While sleeping, it regens health too.

Anyways, your posts have a continual flaw.

Flaw #1: Your arguments are based around skill ranks. First, many many people have putrefaction and other such skills. I fight them all the time. My point has nothing to do with what skills you have. My point has nothing to do with what skills person X has. My point is that Ur'guard can -gain- skills that EXTREMELY push them over the limits when it comes to bashing. If you never obtain those skills and if person X never obtains those skills, that in no way invalidates that fact that if you had them, you'd be able to bash EXTREMELY EASILY. Whether you personally have acess to such has nothing to do with this thread.

Flaw #2: You assume that because Ur'guard were designed to be tanky fighters in combat then that automatically means they should be superior bashers. Realistically, this happens to some degree given the limitations of the bashing system versus the combat system; however, I sincerely doubt that Ur'guard were created to be EXTREMELY powerful bashers versus any other class. I'd say there is a far greater chance that certain abilities which give Ur'guard combat bonuses to fit their style carry over into the bashing system and over power them.

And finally, there has been this ongoing assumption that I don't have an Ur'guard alt. I'm not going to tell you who but don't assume that my arguments are purely theory.

Well thats just great.
One of the two people who are giving the most grief to Magnagora lets everyone know he has an alt in the Army of Magnagora.

Yeehaaa, now Everything is only going to be spoken on the iron council clan... won't life be fun now! (especially since I'm not in that clan *mutter mutter*)

Back to topic, please.

No point

We need that Imperian-person to monitor forums.

yes, yes we do.