It wouldn't be an upgrade, it would be a fix.

That is the logic being used for LICH, so that is the logic I will use.

(I do not object the LICH change, just to the change in exlusion to any other skill relating to night)

You... wha?

You can phrase it however you want, but what I posted was the argument you were making for the reason as to why Moon skills should be upgraded. You can call it a "fix" all you want, but if that "fix" is to your advantage, it is an upgrade.

Lichdom was upgraded in this case because it was damaging to the character. Moon in no way, shape, or form, damages your character. If you want to see Moon upgraded, that is a valid topic, but the logic that "because Lichdom was upgraded, Moon should be too, because they're both Night-based skills" doesn't correlate, because Moon doesn't debilitate your character as Lichdom did.

Essentially, your end-point (Moon needs to be upgraded) may hold water, but your logic in this thread does not. I advise you to find a more compelling argument for your case.

I think he's arguing that the realization night isn't as long as day is what should prompt the upgrade. Not because moon skills are identical to lich, and because lich gets something we should too. I don't think we need any changes in this regard, but his logic is fair.

No it has been stated many times over that a change is not an upgrade if it adjust a skill as originally intended. A fix is not an upgrade.

The logic used in fixing LICH was that, due to the 65/35 day/night ratio, it was not working as intended. My logic is that due to the 65/35 day/night ratio, all night skills are not working as intended. Whether that be reducing time the skill is useable or affecting stats is a moot point (though they could both be said to be analogous, anyway, considering the fact that they both disadvantage the skill user), all night-related skills are disadvantaged because of a game fault.

EDIT: Unless an admin admits that the skills were designed with full knowledge of the day/night ratio (Roark has already stated that the admins did not know there was a difference in the ratio) then you cannot argue that the skills work as intended.

The logic for lichdom is more straight forward though. Average stat gain? No, it was an average loss. How do you upgrade the moondancer skills in such a way, give it an extra affliction? I'd say it's much more complicated.

And yes, focus spirit sucks. I hear it breaks omen and binah as well, and binah is perhaps the only good skill in highmagic besides shield and void.

Well, Omen only lasts for a few seconds anyway.

Stat, time, power: it all relates to the ability for a skillset to be used in a way that it was intended. Having less time to use a skill is still an unintended disadvantage.

Nah, omen lasts 15-22 seconds, I timed it as best I could. It's worth using at 4 power, but only if they don't have focus spirit.

Binah though, damn, throw highmagic a bone. I transed this skillset and it does nothing for me, I would forget it all but I'm holding out for an upgrade to it.

No, it's not the same. You're arguing that because one skill was upgraded, an entire skillset of completely unrelated skills should be upgraded.

So, next time Aquamancy gets an upgrade, I should demand that Cosmic get one as well, because the damage in both skills is based on proficiency in Highmagic? That's essentially what you're arguing: taking the sole, in-passing relationship between two otherwise unrelated skills and saying that because one has changed, there's a causal relationship where the other should be changed.

No, it may not have been the original design for Moon to work within the timeframe they do now, but nor was a lot of what is currently in action in the original design. The design is updated and changed constantly, in order to find what balance works best. If this were still the original design, as an example, village influencing would be the monstrosity of time and effort that it was originally. If Moon needs to be upgraded, that is a topic that is unrelated to Lichdom being upgraded, because the skills aren't related and you're trying to create a false causal relationship between them.

EDIT to be more specific:
All I'm trying to point out is that you're creating a false causal relationship. You're saying that because X changed, Y should change also, where there is little to no relation between X and Y.

Moon may, in fact, need to be upgraded, and the upgrade to Lichdom may have brought this to your attention. That does not mean that the same logic used for upgrading Lich (it was damaging to your character) is valid for Moon (it is NOT damaging to your character). You should do extensive testing with Moon abilities against other comparable abilities in the game, and it may be that Moon is disproportionately subordinate to those other related skillsets. Then you would have justification to call for an upgrade, citing specific data such as abilities, your damage, your defense, etc.

Huh? Netzach kicks buttox!

You seem to understand logic but you are completly ignoring my argument. Theres no point me even replying with a counter-argument considering the fact that you failed to address mine.

Either that, or you do not understand my argument.

Lich was fixed to compensate for the disadvantage the ratio between day and night imposed.

All other night skills, which depend on the ratio between day and night, have not been changed. Are those skills working as intended?

The relationship is between the skills and the day/night ratio.

Right, there is a ratio there that may have not been considered. There, in fact, MAY be a cause for Moon to be upgraded. The specific arguments and evidence you have supplied, however, is not sufficient cause by itself for a justified upgrade, and that is my point which you are missing.

If Moon, as it works now, is balanced (which you have not addressed) compared to other similar skills, there is not cause for an upgrade, regardless of the fact that day is longer than night. It's current balance that matters, not original game design balance which has not been tested accurately.

Perhaps its the wording we are using then, because that is what I intended.

I was attempting to show that the relationship between Lich and the day/night ratio correlates to the relationship between other night skills and the day/night ratio. Lich was upgraded because of how that relationship affected the use of the skill. Other night skills have not been given the same consideration, possibly because they do not have an easily discernably disadvantage (stat differences).

So perhaps you should get to testing then, and post some accurate empirical evidence as to why Moon is at a disadvantage when compared to related skills because of this day/night ratio, along with how it needs to be changed?

I would imagine that should be of primary concern to the Moondancer's Envoy, and any other Moondancers or Serenwilders who have a vested interest in seeing Moon upgraded.

Simply put, your logical argument, as currently stated, in your previous posts does not hold up. I have been pointing out only this since my first post. If you meant to say what I stated above, then you misrepresented yourself in this thread, and I suggest creating another and collecting your thoughts more carefully when phrasing your argument.

He said 0.4-0.5 seconds, not 4-5 seconds. 0.5 as in one half of a second.

0.5 second balance steal from the brownie.

0.5 balance steal! Fear the overpowered Moondancer!

Um, then why was Lich upgraded? I don't remember it being compared to other skills and found lacking... I thought it was because the day/night balance was overall weighted towards the negative? I don't believe it was because Lich was unbalanced compared to any other classes skill.

You can't simultaneously attack and defend the same method of determining where changes might be appropriate.

Nor did I. Lichdom as a skill actually damaged the character's statistics. I would think it's just common sense that a defensive skill you use on yourself shouldn't be more damaging to you than it is helpful, it goes against the point of having those skills.

If you can make a case by itself that Moon is damaging to your character, or needs an upgrade, then by all means do so. However, as Quidgyboo was making comparative arguments, I urged him to make valid comparative arguments. That isn't the only way to skin the proverbial cat, but the one that is most related to the arguments he was already making.

However, I think it will be difficult to prove on a stand-alone basis that Moon needs to be upgraded, and thus I would further recommend that it would be easier to make that argument on a comparative basis with other similar skills.

The same comparative argument could be made of Lichdom. Vitae, Conglutination, Resurgem Covens, and Ressurection, all of which relate primarily to the death of your character, do not adversely affect your character overall until your next death. Therefore, comparatively, Lichdom was at a disadvantage.

Actually, as he keeps saying, the argument is based on the imbalance between day and night. You are saying we must prove that our skills are worse off than some other skill, and maybe thats one way you could look at this. But thats not what Quigyboo was arguing.

Lich was effectively upgraded because an imbalance between day time and night time interfered with one intended outcome of the skill. Therefore, it suggests the administration are aware of the imbalance between day and night. This imbalance between day/night also affects Moon skills. That is the link between these arguments and Lich's upgrade. All we need do is look at the intended usage of night-dependant skills, and see if the difference between length of day and night interferes with that.

Not compare it to realm-wide balance.