The Avenger did and does have problems, implementing a whole new system doesn't fix it though, only adds more problems... I beleive this was one of the orginal arguments agansit karma to... other then the it will screw quests and roleplaying to kingdom come...

The point I think that everyone has missed is the fact that you only keep Karma if you don't attack people. These raiders are the kind of people that playerkill alot, so you're not really going to have to worry about them cursing you.

It is perhaps true that a raider might not lose their Karma, so, it would be relatively simple to add to the loss of karma check somethign that checks if the mob in question is part of an enemy organisation, and make you lose karma accordingly. I think that would nullify 90% of the arguments here.

Also I think the way you get suspect should be changed, so that if someone has fought back, suspect is not implemented.

This is not how it works, and it will not work this way. The coding and logistics make such a system impossible for reasons best raised in another thread.

The Avenger system, or the karma system, will never act in a manner which seems to you to fit in with RP. It can't judge RP, no program can. You can think of all of the neat flags, modifiers for enemy land/mobs/quests, whatever. It'll still be a mindless system with rules and loopholes whom people will oh so subtly (or possibly overtly) manipulate it.

And please, don't even suggest bringing admins in to judge PK. I'm pretty sure we all know where that leads.

I'm hoping that eventually we'll see other actions give karma, albeit in small amounts. I've thought of a few but I'm afraid if I post them people will do the same thing they're doing to Karma here -- ripping apart the concept by ripping apart tiny and entirely changeable, non-core, details of the implementation of the concept as it exists on the first two days since it was rolled out.

But I will say, I am hoping that the administration has been, or will be, given a way to manually give small amounts of karma the same way they give rolepoints, to reward people who do karmically positive things during events and such, and similarly the opposite when they do karmically negative things.

Has anyone been cursed yet?

Another thing has occured to me. If I were willing to quest enough, I could kill as many people as I want and never have any significant problems with the curses. The system's only effect is to try and annoy people into not PvPing, and that is not a good way to go about things.

I don't think you are correct about that Jello. You would lose too much karma each time you kill someone. Your also assuming everyone would curse you and choose to not use the Avenger system.

How do you 'use the avenger system' when all you have is suspect?

They are unable to hit me again. If I keep him on suspect, the next time he kills someone else that removes more Karma.

Rexali had an interesting experience earlier this month. He kept trying to be an ass and build up suspects (in theory to curse) so tactics evolved to handle the situation.

Rexali was fully locked (I think he lacks focus mind so he had no means to escape), given generosity and vestiphobia, etc. Is this seriously the direction we want to take player combat? It certainly isn't going to happen to be me because I know how to get out of a full affliction lock but what about those "innocent, noncombatants" who like Karma? I can just see someone cursing person-X (who killed said victim for a quest item trying to get more Karma); person-X goes to former victim; person-X allhexes (or whatever means necessary to lock) victim; person-X either robs or leaves victim....

So what did Karma solve? It turned the truly spiteful into thiefs and such... and I assure you, sitting on your ass with a full lock, stupidity, dementia, etc... is FAR WORSE than dying... even more so if all of your possession are stolen. Furthermore, since person-X didn't kill said victim, said victim has no means to "strike back" and can later be slain or re-tortured.

I think that is wonderfull.

Karma is the idea that what goes around comes around.

Try to flaunt your karma, and you will get hosed.

You didn't have to steal his things, but its a nice touch.

This is exactly why I like Karma much better than any PK flag. There is no way around a PK flag.

...wait...you -like- karma because it has gaping loopholes that are easy to abuse?

I don't call that abuse, or a loophole.

I like Karma because it forces players to become more creative. It makes the dynamics of the game more interesting. It also allows for various players of various talents to actually join together to create a city/commune that has power.

Take France for example. They appear to have a lot of power, but not the strongest of armies.

I like the worlds I play in to be complex and interesting.

And that is exactly why I have suggested that people give it some time for them to adapt.

So let me get this straight? You find it perfectly acceptable that while Karma may reduce "player deaths" because it is more feasible to torture the victim, rob them blind, and leave them sitting unable to do anything except pray that some non-Karma whore will sacrifice their hard earned Karma to put said person out of misery?

France needs to have everyone going in the same direction before they can even be considered 'powerful.' Only reason they have a Veto in the UN is because for some reason Churchill wanted France to have a Veto...

Like I have repeated atleast 5 times now. Karma is more than just a means to reduce "player deaths." I have a hard time continuing conversations with people who can only see things as black or white.

Like I have repeated at least 5 times, the whole point of Karma is to reduce player PK... the other stuff was thrown in to make Karma appear more "appealing" but doesn't change the fact.

I'm not sure how accurate that assesment is.
Are you aware France owns the top media companies in the united states? As well as one of the top 5 computer game companies?

However, ounce-for-ounce... France is quite lacking compared to other countries with Veto power.

I would like to hear a comment from the administration on that one, because I do not believe that to be the case.