Get in line. There are already a slew of things for them to comment on. *must stop feeding forums addiction and complete linguistics homework*

The polls from which this change came were entitled 'Ways to curb excessive PK'. Seems like a pretty good indication of intent to me.

Also, how can you possibly argue that holding someone still and attempting to rob them blind instead of killing them, for the -sole- purpose of sticking to an OOC system, is a good side effect? Will all the alleged victims of excessive PK now live in peace knowing that they'll be robbed blind and left naked and disabled instead of being killed?

The polls were entiled ways to curb excessive PK on prime.

I can argue it because I happen to have some experiential knowledge on player behaviour and have looked into game theory and mechanics.

The argument has been stated over and over again, and while everyone remains emotional about this issue, there is no real point in trying to rehash an argument you can go read elswhere on the forum.

I made a post about this actually, how robbery will be on the rise as a result of how it is better for the assailants than just killing them is. So, they will probably make changes to make robbery less common as well, and the realm is that much more interesting. Robbery previously wasn't worth the effort, but we can look towards its rise as one of the many negative side effects karma is going to have.

Lend us some of your *insight* and answer the question then.

It is much hard to be a thief than a murderer.

Thievery is something people have more pity against, thus its IC political ramifications are much harder to defend than pure murder is.

A player who is of the kind to kill others just because they can, is less likey to steal.

As thievery rises, the defences against thievery rises as well.

One who is stolen from, often feels bested in a game, whereas one who is randomly murdered generally feels more helpless.

In order to be a victim of theft, you need to have items that can be stolen, to be murdered you must only exist.

These are just a few of the most basic concepts.

Your theories don't hold too much water considering that techniques to steal are already being imployed at an excessive level pre-Karma. I know, I have been invited to join so long as my pooka is by my side. Furthermore, I find that people who are robbed are FAR more upset than people who are murdered. In fact, that's why there is a skill called HEARTSTOP so you can -kill- yourself if you are getting robbed. I can just see it...

Person X robs victim. Victim escapes with his or her life but lost over 20,000 hard earned gold; a 25,000 gold enchanted crown; etc. Whereas the victim would have been furious if slain, he or she is quite ok with the situation because he or she was "bested." *rofl* Do you live in the twilight zone?

None of which apply within the context of Lusternia.

Thievery is something people have more pity against, and yet it won't matter because political lines have already been drawn, and thievery will just develop into the same constant as PK is now, given that PK will be the less attractive option.

A player who is of the kind to kill others just because they can, will turn to theft when they realize that killing others hurts -them- more than it hurts their victim.

As thievery rises, the defences against thievery will likely remain relatively constant, until the Divine step in and make some more changes, which judging by recent track records will just cause further complications that will require more changes, and we'll just go into a downward spiral of fixing problems generated by previous fixes.

One who is stolen from often feels bested in a game, but not in Lusternia. They'll blame it on Karma, and they'll blame it on bugs, and they'll bitch and moan until changes are made to facilitate their needs. It never should have gotten to this point to begin with, but once the ball is set in motion, it will be difficult to stop.

In order to be a victim of theft, you need to have items that can be stolen, and guess what? Everyone does. Newbies fresh out of the Portal have items that can be stolen, and that number will just increase as their life goes on.

Again, give people time to adapt.

Its a large change and requires time to get use to it.

Cursed items is not in wide spread usage yet.

You cannot curse gold in your pack or jewelry that is enchanted (unless you never want to get it re-enchanted) or any item that is not worn (ie. weapons, shields, vials, etc.)

EDIT: Whereas you can can curse some of the above, it does nothing. I tried to curse my shield so it couldn't get knocked out of my hands, and it didn't work.

I should really listen to myself when I say I will wait for emotions to flare down a bit.

I expect the problem to get worse not better... I hope you plan on waiting for a *really* long time.

The problem won't get worse as long as the proper preventative measures are taken to ensure that this system isn't used as it was intended to be.

How about this, Dag....next time you step outside the city, and get kidnapped, v-locked, and robbed blind of anything you cherish ingame... Then you can judge if it is more 'creative' or whatever you are calling it at the time. In any matter, don't expect much help from other people.

Just because you love karma, doesn't mean other people do, and are willing to risk a curse just to save you from such a fate.

And even if you do decide to snag revenge....and even kill the person who robbed you blind. Guess what! They can be a bastard, quest casually during that RL week, and curse you, too boot! If the person robbed is a basher, well, even better! You can snag all their exp if they don't cure it.

Welcome to Lusternia : age of Theft with no Retaliation!

See, this is where the concept of being seperate from your charachter becomes handy. And why you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

My charachter, Daganev, has 10 karma right now. I expect it will be some time before I'm able to get 50 karma and even experience one of the blessings for myself. I'm 100% confidant that if my things got stolen, I would be very very upset. I also know, I did not appreiciate it when I got randomly jumped while daganev was sleeping and I came back to find a loss of 2 levels.

However, despite what my own personal playing experience might be, I can still see the merit and advantages to the Karma system, and like in the past. When it came to class balance, influencing, Avenger, villages, magnagoran domination, serenwilde domination, celest inafectualness, questing, bugs, and just about every other issue people have whined about, time and time again, I have seen that the good players find ways to adapt and make the world all that more interesting, and then us sucky players are able to learn these new techniques and enjoy the game as much as they do, untill they discover a new technique to get ahead again.

When change after change has only made the game more interesting, I start to lose faith in the whiners and complainers.

Anybody remember the threads in the MSN forum where people where saying how the Avenger was completely stupid and nobody would be able to kill anyone? Well guess what... not only was everybody wrong then, but the inverse of it became true.

The problem I have is that I see more disadvantages than advantages (like most people who disagree with Karma) and thus the issue. Furthermore, I fail to see how Lusternia has become "more interesting" when the driving force between the bulk of players currently is to quest for Karma regardless of what questing entails. For example, I have slain the Dark Council of Glomdoring -soooo- many times in the last day or so... I normally do this to prevent those who would raise Crow but I decided otherwise. I find that the people who raise the Dark Council will eventually kill off the skeletons on their own (saving me the hassle) only because they can regain Karma returning them once again to Brennan, etc. Is this more interesting? I think not.

People where complaining about karma before they were able to finish reading the HELP file on it.

Because of that, I feel emotions are getting the better of people.

Once people are able to live with Karma for some time, and actually see how it is, then I will be more inclined to believe any stories about how life has changed for the worse.

And yes, I do find that more interesting. It shows how the whole "crow thing" isn't really the focus of people doing things in Glomdoring. What is so wrong with the idea that Magnagora would be self serving in regards to the dark council?

It helps show the true priorities in certain things, and might even be an avenue for political discussion.

I find that absolutely ridiculous. How can you possibly justify that idle, un-founded questing for the sake of gaining Karma and -nothing- else (remeber, these people didn't raise the Dark Council for Magnagora anymore than they did for Crow... I know this because I asked Erion and he pointed out that it gave 3% karma per 2 skeletons, which was his only concern) adds flavor to Lusternia? There is absolutely no IC-reason why people are raising the Dark Council other than the fact that it is a relatively easy quest that can be repeated at an exceptional rate to gain Karma.

And this is different than killing steel goats how?

When the time comes that some people want to raise crow, and others are trying to gain karma, it will become intersting.

The fact that you and the person doing the act sees Karma as nothing but points on a table, does not change the fact that Karma is something that exists IC, and if an action gains it, there is more than one reason for doing that deed.

First of all read HELP AFK. If you were sleeping and got attacked you would instantly be woken up and able to respond. -If- you were not afk. The fact you lost 2 levels from it means you were not only AFK you were AFK for a long period of time. So who's fault is it that you lost 2 levels? Who's fault is it that you could not call for help and/or escape?

If people refuse to take responsibility for their actions they should zip their lips and stop saying it is the pkers that are the problem.

On the off chance you lost link while you were sleeping this is again soley your fault for having a timeout higher than 3 minutes. It has been said on so many threads of IRE games that people with high timeouts are just asking for huge level losses if they get killed while they have lost link.

Again, this isn't the fault of PKers. Sure its annoying to be jumped. I get jumped by Yrael almost regularily. Lusted by Drago and empressed out of Estelbar when I lost link. Do I go on about how PK needs to be cut down because I am being jumped? No. I have a target on my back. I -put- that target on my back through past actions. I expect to be jumped everytime I leave the safety of my Commune.

I am a combatant, through deed and word. I am not a PKer who constantly raids, nor do I seek PK. However, I fight when there is a need for me to fight and that means I am a combatant.

Let's put it this way. The guy next door kills his wife. Three days later the police come and arrest him and he gets sentenced to death. I would love to see his case for defense be. "But I was just sitting in my living room minding my own business when they arrested me. It isn't fair. I mean it's not like I was killing someone right -then-"