Let me try this again. I'll write out the piecies of information that are in my brain, and you can figure out if its a problem or not.

Typing SAY TO NAYL "BLAH" while lusted, returns the phrase to me.. "You can not even THINK about hurting her."

It is possible to propose to yourself if you have a bizzare combination of Afflictions.

Love potions automatically lust people to you.

You can sip poisions to get thier affliction.

DEFEND allows you to attack someone without having to DECLARE first.

It may be possible to make a pooka or some sort declare someone an Ally or an enemy etc.

Other stuff about statues and totems and hexes and demenses that I don't know about.

You can only Defend someone if they're currently flagged by a Declare, meaning they have to be getting attacked at the time of the DEFEND command.

Daganev, I don't understand the proposal thing though. Maybe you should just bug those things?

And declare doesn't wear off from what I understand after the initial attack, unless a period of time passes where combat isn't taking place.

You can't force someone to suicide or other important commands. I'm sure it'll be the same for these new suspect rules.



What do self-inflicted wounds have to do with this?

Well, from what I understand demesnes can't attack you if you haven't declared on that person. Hexes, I'm sure it'll be the same way.

Totems and statues I can't answer for. Since totems are branded now I suppose that raises a good point. Statues are also bonded in a sense or just enchanted?

Unless it is changed so tuned statues can only work in the territory it is tuned for, affecting enemies of that territory (Which is technically how it is now, aside from the "can only work in the territory it's tuned for.")

You know what will be really fun? Expecting an attack from someone and hitting this macro every few seconds:

defend arilyon
defend daevos
defend veonira
defend bricriu
defend murphy
defend rakor
swing narsrim
swing narsrim

As Olan said, I'm trying to raise issues before they come up by themselves.

It's impossible to defend prior to being declared upon, and even then I'm assuming it only works after the initial hit. Or it should be impossible.

So no, anticipating attacks shouldn't work.

If you have to declare to summon a friend, then an opportunistic enemy could defend that friend and attack you without getting suspect. There are also cases when non-summoning aggressive actions could be friendly, if you're testing things. Someone else raised a concern about duels, and having to trust your opponent to also declare on you before attacking. Maybe there could be some way to mutually declare.

1) I hope you can't defend until they are ATTACKED, not just declared. Otherwise, people will defend people randomly all the time trying to get freedom for avenger, especially since it can be done at range.

2) the anticipation I was talking about was knowing, in my example, that Narsrim is attacking and will attack SOMEONE. As long as I don't declare, I can't attack him at all. But I don't know who he will attack. So I set up a macro to defend everyone in the room then hit him, so that no matter who he attacks, I'm safe and I don't have to catch the name in the spam. I realize it won't do anything until he attacks, but when he does, I automatically will trigger defense for SOMEBODY.

This still seems like it would mess with group combat, which has been a great part of Lusternia.

I think you will just be seeing lots of things like..

Olan says, "DEFEND ME!, ATTACK NARSRIM!"

Especially when we can do it at any range, and, for sake of example, Brona could sit in Magnagora, wait until I said that, defend me, catacombs to Dairuchi, and as long as he catches up with Narsrim within a few minutes, get a 'free' kill.

If Dairuchi is controlled by Magnagora, Narsrim wouldn't even need to DEFEND (assuming Narsrim is an enemy of Magnagora).

Not really sure what the point is though... is this a bad thing? If your going to start fights, doesn't it make sense that the repercussions are tough?

Regarding totems/statues, we'll definitely have to think that one over though I'm inclined to say totems/statues would be exempt from needing to have someone DECLARE to work. As I said before, we're not aiming to have a perfect system but rather a system everyone can live with.

Hmmm, at first I liked it. It sounds iffy though, like adding an overly complex mechanic to a system that seemed to work fine. I changed my mind about karma though, I like some parts, but a few things I think need to be worked on in a post I'll make shortly.

A couple thoughts:

-How about a command called DELCARATIONS that lets you see who you've declared on, and a message for when the declaration expires? It could also show the people that you can attack by way of defending someone.

-Maybe, for duels, something called DUEL (person) that lets the other person AGREE and then neither of you has to worry about declaring or suspect lists. (This would also work if you just wanted to test something.)

-You should only be able to defend someone who has you as a willingly declared ally (i.e. not via love potion). As an explanation of why, say that Bob, Joe, and George are all on different sides. Bob declares and attacks Joe. George defends Joe to be able to attack Bob without retribution.

I like it, though - definately a step in the right direction!

I think it sounds like a good step in helping with the biggest problem I saw with the Avenger system, getting suspect on someone who attacked you first. Thanks for the great work you guys do!

To answer some questions...

* Declare is only needed if you have PK careful on. If you have it off then attacking could be an automatic declare.
* It is an extension to PK CAREFUL. Thus anything that could be potentially stopped with PK careful will apply. This means your ents will not accidentally attack nor will your demesne abilities accidentally attack through it.
* It would be ranged. IE-You just list whenever you want all the people you want to kill, no matter where they are. Ditto defend.
* No UNDECLARE.
* If two people declare against each other before fighting then either one gets suspected if he wins since both declared aggression.
* You could not summon people without declaring since it is considered a hostile action. (If PK CAREFUL would stops you from summoning people with suspect against you then it applies here.)
* The timer would probably something like 5 minutes, maybe more, maybe less. The timer resets to full time with every hostile action against that target. Thus it ends only after X minutes of no hostilities.

This is really an extension of the old PK system and can go in with or without karma. The impacts of this would be more PK regardless of the system, but IMO valid PK that people do not get bothered by (ie-not random grief killing):
* People will not get suspect status for defending themselves from someone who jumps them. This allows for more revenge killings, though legitimate forms of revenge.
* People will not get suspect status for defending others, which will mean that they will not become neutered after successfully defending a friend once. For example. Bob attacks my friend. I kill Bob to defend him. I don't get suspected and thus I am free to defend my friend against Bob a second time.

Correct. It is an extension of the PK CAREFUL system.

Wouldn't it be good to just have PK declare go on for a much much longer amount of time, and then have an "undeclare" only work 5 minutes after the last aggressive action or something? I just KNOW I am going to forget to use this.