Xavius2005-03-12 04:02:15
QUOTE(Olan @ Mar 11 2005, 10:31 PM)
We did this for a while, and the result was that most of the Celest players STOPPED PLAYING THE GAME because we did it well. Divine pressure and our OOC desire to see the realms prosper changed our focus. I wish people would give up on this bullsh*t about 'you started the war, deal with it!'
71448
I don't know if many actually stopped playing, but a great many of us had to work up the willpower to care enough to stop the Magnagorans sometimes. We were just righteously outclassed. I (I being Alex, not Xavius) wish something would happen to minorly tamper with our alliance with the Serens. No need for an all-out war, but, you know...stick us on opposite sides of the coin. Just reintroduce the potential, give Magnagora that chance to redeem itself, and let the chips fall where they may.
If Serenwilde is still allied with Celest afterwards...well, tough.
Xavius2005-03-12 04:04:01
Actually, no. I looked over that post and laughed at myself. I think the reason why we're on such good terms with Serenwilde is that we've spiralled into a soft, vanilla-grey city of flashlight bulbs. No way to fix that except take a stand.
'Cuse me while I go cause trouble.
'Cuse me while I go cause trouble.
Narsrim2005-03-12 06:38:57
I think a lot of people have it all wrong. What currently binds Serenwilde and Celest in a mutual pact is how Magnagora goes about doing its thing. For example, Magnagora forms an assault party and raids Celest villages. They then turn around and raid Serenwilde villages. Magnagora paints the picture that it is opposed to everything but itself and as a result, forces mutual agreements between its enemies.
If Magnagora truly wanted to distance Serenwilde from Celest, they would focus all of their actions against Celest and nothing against Serenwilde. Magnagora would try to make it look like Serenwilde has no reason to fight against them... in fact, they should make it seem profitable for Serenwilde to stay at bay. A good example of this would be ensuring that Rockholm has a high dwarf population but Southgard gets raped over-and-over.
Whereas Narsrim may not buy into a scheme of this nature, Serenwilde most likely would. And I'm sure those greedy alchemists would back this like nothing else.
EDIT: Just to be fair, I'd like to present the "effort" of Magnagora so far. It goes like this:
If you don't do this (ie. influence, stop doing this or that), we will kill your dwarfs, people, etc.
I cannot think of a more retarded approach to "win over" Serenwilde and separate them from Celest. Let's all take a trip back in time and look at how Chade pulled it off: He was nice about things. He tried to ensure zero conflict. He knew when to kiss ass. It may not appeal to the ego of some Magnagora leaders but I think it is fairly obvious that if Magangora wants to push Serenwilde away from Celest, they need to take a pro-active approach and try strategies that work. Ever since Magnagora adopted the "bad ass" policy, it has failed. It did work originally until Celest and Serenwilde said... hey, screw this... and teamed up. Since that time, Magnagora has violently crashed from being the rulers of the Basin to just another city.
If Magnagora truly wanted to distance Serenwilde from Celest, they would focus all of their actions against Celest and nothing against Serenwilde. Magnagora would try to make it look like Serenwilde has no reason to fight against them... in fact, they should make it seem profitable for Serenwilde to stay at bay. A good example of this would be ensuring that Rockholm has a high dwarf population but Southgard gets raped over-and-over.
Whereas Narsrim may not buy into a scheme of this nature, Serenwilde most likely would. And I'm sure those greedy alchemists would back this like nothing else.
EDIT: Just to be fair, I'd like to present the "effort" of Magnagora so far. It goes like this:
If you don't do this (ie. influence, stop doing this or that), we will kill your dwarfs, people, etc.
I cannot think of a more retarded approach to "win over" Serenwilde and separate them from Celest. Let's all take a trip back in time and look at how Chade pulled it off: He was nice about things. He tried to ensure zero conflict. He knew when to kiss ass. It may not appeal to the ego of some Magnagora leaders but I think it is fairly obvious that if Magangora wants to push Serenwilde away from Celest, they need to take a pro-active approach and try strategies that work. Ever since Magnagora adopted the "bad ass" policy, it has failed. It did work originally until Celest and Serenwilde said... hey, screw this... and teamed up. Since that time, Magnagora has violently crashed from being the rulers of the Basin to just another city.
Bricriu2005-03-12 07:48:54
I'd personally love to see an event involving Raziela needing Fae, or else something bad happens arise. If Celest refuses to play their roles, or wants to restrict people who DO wish to go with the role set for Celest, force them to do so, or pay the price for it.
I vote for Raziela needing fae, or else her sadness of seeing so many potential beings for the light not being converted, she goes mad and slowly becomes demonic, unless she is fed those fae.
I vote for Raziela needing fae, or else her sadness of seeing so many potential beings for the light not being converted, she goes mad and slowly becomes demonic, unless she is fed those fae.
Anarias2005-03-12 08:20:02
That's just ridiculous. Narsrim had it spot on. You can't just adopt a foreign policy, be upset when it fails miserably and expect a hardcoded event to bend the world around your policy. If Magnagora really wanted to be the force of power it wants to be then it would drop the tough guy routine and lose the whole Mhaldorian evil complex.
Geb2005-03-12 08:32:17
Instead of trying to find an intelligent way of being evil, some role-players of evil would prefer that people play some part defined by them and just make it easy for them and their allies to be evil. Let's not consider the fact that it is in the best interest of Serenwilde and Celest to work together, since Magnagora can not control their urges to pillage and destroy all that they do not control. Let's just program it into the game to force people to follow some defined path, so that things do not develop in an organic nature based on decisions made by the players.
Until Magnagora learns the fine art of subtlety and curbs its need to let everyone know it is the baddest in the basin, it will always be in Serenwilde and Celest's best interest to work together against the common threat.
The last thing that amazes me is this wounded animal act some of these people are putting forth. “It is not fair that they band against us.†They continue to cause as much trouble as they possibly can, agitating both sides to no end. Then they have the nerve to be shocked when both groups decide to band together to put the rogue state down. Like I have stated before, perhaps you guys should learn how to play your role a bit better. Learn to be a different sort of evil, instead of this mindless kill, kill, pillage, kill version you are now.
Until Magnagora learns the fine art of subtlety and curbs its need to let everyone know it is the baddest in the basin, it will always be in Serenwilde and Celest's best interest to work together against the common threat.
The last thing that amazes me is this wounded animal act some of these people are putting forth. “It is not fair that they band against us.†They continue to cause as much trouble as they possibly can, agitating both sides to no end. Then they have the nerve to be shocked when both groups decide to band together to put the rogue state down. Like I have stated before, perhaps you guys should learn how to play your role a bit better. Learn to be a different sort of evil, instead of this mindless kill, kill, pillage, kill version you are now.
Bricriu2005-03-12 08:51:26
QUOTE(Anarias @ Mar 12 2005, 03:20 AM)
That's just ridiculous. Narsrim had it spot on. You can't just adopt a foreign policy, be upset when it fails miserably and expect a hardcoded event to bend the world around your policy. If Magnagora really wanted to be the force of power it wants to be then it would drop the tough guy routine and lose the whole Mhaldorian evil complex.
71493
Funny....I suppose the fact Magnagora got pushed into a War (so the Fae Tainting event could go off, thus losing some pressure on Celest) while we were dominating, so that Magnagora could get slapped around by TWO forces wasn't hardcoded to make things better for Celest in the end.
Geb - going by your reasoning of best interest being best reason for something to happen, if it was in Serenwilde and Celest's best interest to say, kill off a Moon Avatar or Supernal for thousands of city credits, or some supreme amount of power...they should?
Secondly, I am not aware of you playing a Magnagoran character or alt, so, I'm not sure where this opinion on 'it's not ours, destroy it' has come into play. It's certainly not the opinion of the city as a whole, and if you want to bring in the arguement that one can represent all, that would leave Serenwilde and Celest in the same hole, due to a few characters they have.
Third - excuse the rest of the world for wanting to see a place fulfill it's RP role. How DARE we think that Celest should be listening to their own Supernals, and, just for one small example, think they should be trying to lead fae to Raziela into the light, or, at the VERY least, not be restricting other people from trying to live up to the RP of it, on punishment of getting booted, apparently.
Geb2005-03-12 09:36:13
Your analogy is pitiful to say the least. Next time please use an intelligent and reasonable argument, instead of the manufactured situation you put forth. You extremely weaken your point when you use a situation that does not even pass the realm of plausibility.
Bricriu2005-03-12 09:50:07
You obviously missed the point then, Geb. Instead of trying to berate as always, why not actually look at the situation?
The point is - just because it might be nice, does not mean it should be done.
By all means, Celestians should be trying to help those poor little fae by taking them to Raziela and leading them into the light - unless, of course, Raziela has somehow changed, and no longer wants to help them by taking them down the right path. Instead, Celest chooses to ignore their roleplay, and then hinder those who DO wish to follow the roleplay of their city.
I can understand how Celest would be upset over losing their partnership with Serenwilde, seeing how much Serenwilde provides them. But if you (And not you, specifically, Geb, I speak in general here.) are not playing your role and hinder others from theirs, don't get upset if people suggest ideas that will force you to play your role, or suffer consequences for it.
The point is - just because it might be nice, does not mean it should be done.
By all means, Celestians should be trying to help those poor little fae by taking them to Raziela and leading them into the light - unless, of course, Raziela has somehow changed, and no longer wants to help them by taking them down the right path. Instead, Celest chooses to ignore their roleplay, and then hinder those who DO wish to follow the roleplay of their city.
I can understand how Celest would be upset over losing their partnership with Serenwilde, seeing how much Serenwilde provides them. But if you (And not you, specifically, Geb, I speak in general here.) are not playing your role and hinder others from theirs, don't get upset if people suggest ideas that will force you to play your role, or suffer consequences for it.
Unknown2005-03-12 11:36:04
QUOTE(Bricriu @ Mar 11 2005, 10:51 PM)
Funny....I suppose the fact Magnagora got pushed into a War (so the Fae Tainting event could go off, thus losing some pressure on Celest) while we were dominating, so that Magnagora could get slapped around by TWO forces wasn't hardcoded to make things better for Celest in the end.
71497
They had a choice. They could have chosen to not go for the experiment.
Murphy2005-03-12 11:40:19
And we would all have been stripped of leadership positions
Unknown2005-03-12 11:43:33
Pfff, and replaced by whom? It sounds like an idle threat to me. I doubt any of you really considered the ramifications and went completely along with it, thinking from an OOC perspective it'd be "fun".
Bricriu2005-03-12 12:38:33
Even if Lusternia is not a realm where the Divine are 'all powerful' - would you tell both patrons of your city No?
Elryn2005-03-12 12:41:38
Is it -really- that important how the war started? Whether it was Serenwilde, Magnagora or the Divine, it had the same effect. 
And now is a different time and a different situation.
And now is a different time and a different situation.
Shiri2005-03-12 13:26:04
The problem might be that even if the Celestians DID want to go kill the Fae, then survive on the Ethereal vs. hordes of attacking Seren long enough to get a honeycake and wait for the dead Faerie to repop from the well and feed it and kidnap it and traverse up Water, they've seen how easy it's been for Tuek, Narsrim, Lazul etc. (Okay, we don't have Lazul, but you know what I mean) to raid Nil, and they'd rather not risk the angels' lives. If it was just a simple matter of feeding them the honeycakes, fine, but as we've converted them all, they'd have to be killed (and then you have to fight your way out of the odd totem, guards, and angry Seren) to get out, you know?
Bricriu2005-03-12 13:44:25
Just because it is hard does not mean that the RP of it should be ditched, however. That's just ...well, to be frank, STUPID.
Yes, it is supposed to be difficult - that doesn't mean you just toss your role out the window because it is easier, though.
Yes, it is supposed to be difficult - that doesn't mean you just toss your role out the window because it is easier, though.
Shiri2005-03-12 13:56:04
Did I say it would be ditched? No, they'd be able to take advantage of it if say, a Magnagoran killed them. But it's perfectly IC to say that the risk isn't worth it at the moment. They need Seren allies against Magnagora more than they need some angels converted at the expense of a Commune waging war against them, especially when it's not necessarily one of their moral priorities.
They need Seren allies against Magnagora more than they need some angels converted at the expense of a Commune waging war against them, especially when it's not necessarily one of their moral priorities.Rashidat2005-03-12 14:55:25
You don't go against your beliefs, you don't go against long standing history, you don't go against the will of the Divine.
Rashidat's thoughts: Some in the Serenwilde think we are anti-taint. I don't know where that comes from. While we want to keep taint out of the forests, I have no cares over what happens to the cities or the rest of the Basin. It is the long standing position of the commune not to get involved. I know this from the histories, and I know it to be the right position. It's proven so by the Night Coven. They took a stand against the taint, and the Gloriana was ruined.
I don't blame the Taint for the fall of the Gloriana, it was Rowena's arrogance in thinking she could use the powers of nature to alter Basin wide events. Rowena was a failure. I can't fault her desire to protect the forest, but I do blame her for making such a monumental error in judgement. The Lake Coven did the right thing in departing the Basin.
My thoughts: I always saw the Serenwilde as playing the role of Shogun era Japan. Close the borders and keep the barbarians out. Anyone who had crusading notions would be looked at as strange or odd. Dealing with the outside world should be an infrequent and unpleasant duty. It should be approached with distrust, apprehension, and with as little respect for outside parties as is possible.
Even if such attitudes seems unfounded in the modern era (and it is very easy to argue thet they are not), long standing beliefs would not be so quickly changed. There has been no campaign to change the hearts and mind of the Seren. Why would the Seren suddenly and inexplicably re-evaluate the prudence and judgement of the cities. Japan didn't open up till put at gunpoint and forced to.
Yet we find in modern Lusternia, that the Serens take an active role in raiding, crusading, playing Basin politics with Celest, and fighting the taint. Many Serens make quick friends of outsiders, and they take to heart matters that have nothing to do with their beloved forest.
I don't blame those playing the Magnora side to cry poor RP.
Rashidat's thoughts: Some in the Serenwilde think we are anti-taint. I don't know where that comes from. While we want to keep taint out of the forests, I have no cares over what happens to the cities or the rest of the Basin. It is the long standing position of the commune not to get involved. I know this from the histories, and I know it to be the right position. It's proven so by the Night Coven. They took a stand against the taint, and the Gloriana was ruined.
I don't blame the Taint for the fall of the Gloriana, it was Rowena's arrogance in thinking she could use the powers of nature to alter Basin wide events. Rowena was a failure. I can't fault her desire to protect the forest, but I do blame her for making such a monumental error in judgement. The Lake Coven did the right thing in departing the Basin.
My thoughts: I always saw the Serenwilde as playing the role of Shogun era Japan. Close the borders and keep the barbarians out. Anyone who had crusading notions would be looked at as strange or odd. Dealing with the outside world should be an infrequent and unpleasant duty. It should be approached with distrust, apprehension, and with as little respect for outside parties as is possible.
Even if such attitudes seems unfounded in the modern era (and it is very easy to argue thet they are not), long standing beliefs would not be so quickly changed. There has been no campaign to change the hearts and mind of the Seren. Why would the Seren suddenly and inexplicably re-evaluate the prudence and judgement of the cities. Japan didn't open up till put at gunpoint and forced to.
Yet we find in modern Lusternia, that the Serens take an active role in raiding, crusading, playing Basin politics with Celest, and fighting the taint. Many Serens make quick friends of outsiders, and they take to heart matters that have nothing to do with their beloved forest.
I don't blame those playing the Magnora side to cry poor RP.
Geb2005-03-12 15:09:17
QUOTE(Bricriu @ Mar 12 2005, 01:38 PM)
Even if Lusternia is not a realm where the Divine are 'all powerful' - would you tell both patrons of your city No?
71529
Actually Celest has done just that. Celest ran one patron out of the city and told the other that it would not incitizen her Orderhead. Not saying that my city was right, but just stating it has been done.
Unknown2005-03-12 15:10:15
QUOTE(Rashidat @ Mar 12 2005, 10:55 AM)
You don't go against your beliefs, you don't go against long standing history, you don't go against the will of the Divine.
Rashidat's thoughts: Some in the Serenwilde think we are anti-taint. I don't know where that comes from. While we want to keep taint out of the forests, I have no cares over what happens to the cities or the rest of the Basin. It is the long standing position of the commune not to get involved. I know this from the histories, and I know it to be the right position. It's proven so by the Night Coven. They took a stand against the taint, and the Gloriana was ruined.
I don't blame the Taint for the fall of the Gloriana, it was Rowena's arrogance in thinking she could use the powers of nature to alter Basin wide events. Rowena was a failure. I can't fault her desire to protect the forest, but I do blame her for making such a monumental error in judgement. The Lake Coven did the right thing in departing the Basin.
My thoughts: I always saw the Serenwilde as playing the role of Shogun era Japan. Close the borders and keep the barbarians out. Anyone who had crusading notions would be looked at as strange or odd. Dealing with the outside world should be an infrequent and unpleasant duty. It should be approached with distrust, apprehension, and with as little respect for outside parties as is possible.
Even if such attitudes seems unfounded in the modern era (and it is very easy to argue thet they are not), long standing beliefs would not be so quickly changed. There has been no campaign to change the hearts and mind of the Seren. Why would the Seren suddenly and inexplicably re-evaluate the prudence and judgement of the cities. Japan didn't open up till put at gunpoint and forced to.
Yet we find in modern Lusternia, that the Serens take an active role in raiding, crusading, playing Basin politics with Celest, and fighting the taint. Many Serens make quick friends of outsiders, and they take to heart matters that have nothing to do with their beloved forest.
I don't blame those playing the Magnora side to cry poor RP.
Rashidat's thoughts: Some in the Serenwilde think we are anti-taint. I don't know where that comes from. While we want to keep taint out of the forests, I have no cares over what happens to the cities or the rest of the Basin. It is the long standing position of the commune not to get involved. I know this from the histories, and I know it to be the right position. It's proven so by the Night Coven. They took a stand against the taint, and the Gloriana was ruined.
I don't blame the Taint for the fall of the Gloriana, it was Rowena's arrogance in thinking she could use the powers of nature to alter Basin wide events. Rowena was a failure. I can't fault her desire to protect the forest, but I do blame her for making such a monumental error in judgement. The Lake Coven did the right thing in departing the Basin.
My thoughts: I always saw the Serenwilde as playing the role of Shogun era Japan. Close the borders and keep the barbarians out. Anyone who had crusading notions would be looked at as strange or odd. Dealing with the outside world should be an infrequent and unpleasant duty. It should be approached with distrust, apprehension, and with as little respect for outside parties as is possible.
Even if such attitudes seems unfounded in the modern era (and it is very easy to argue thet they are not), long standing beliefs would not be so quickly changed. There has been no campaign to change the hearts and mind of the Seren. Why would the Seren suddenly and inexplicably re-evaluate the prudence and judgement of the cities. Japan didn't open up till put at gunpoint and forced to.
Yet we find in modern Lusternia, that the Serens take an active role in raiding, crusading, playing Basin politics with Celest, and fighting the taint. Many Serens make quick friends of outsiders, and they take to heart matters that have nothing to do with their beloved forest.
I don't blame those playing the Magnora side to cry poor RP.
71559
Umm, I think you might need to re read the history of Lusternia. Rowena wasn't a failure, and the forest was actually proving to reheal the basin slowly. If it wasn't for morons like Ladantine, the taint would of never happen.. the real failure is project cosmic hope.
