Sylphas2005-02-22 17:57:58
Wisp/Flow not working in ethereal forest brings up a sticky issue. If it counts as forest, why shouldn't they work? If it doesn't, neither should forest regen or vines. Also, if it doesn't, Aquamancer demesne should not count as water, and Geomancer demesne shouldn't count as tainted.
Revan2005-02-22 20:23:12
Guys, quit complaining about Geo demesnes. Gods, first we all agree that Geos need an upgrade, now you all bitch because we're capable of killing! "BOO HOO NOW THE GEOMANCERS ACTUALLY HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE AGAINST PEOPLE! OH NO, THIS IS WRONG! WE WANT OUR ULTRA KILLABLE MAGES BACK!" I'm rather tired of it. I get non-stop tells saying how frikkin overpowered I am now when I haven't even had a chance to USE my demesne. Amaru, you need to shut your damn mouth because all YOU ever do is complain when ANYTHING kills you, but Gods forbid we even TOUCH your skills. The rest of you, let us have our damn peace. We deserve this upgrade. Go complain about Hartstone.
Edited for extra emphasis
Edited for extra emphasis
Ceres2005-02-22 20:25:07
QUOTE(Revan @ Feb 22 2005, 08:23 PM)
Gues, quit complaining about Geo demesnes. Gods, first we all agree that Geos need an upgrade, now you all bitch because we're capable of killing! Amaru, you need to shut your damn mouth because all YOU ever do is complain when ANYTHING kills you, but Gods forbid we even TOUCH your skills. The rest of you, let us have our damn peace. We deserve this upgrade. Go complain about Hartstone.
57345
Geb2005-02-22 21:25:05
QUOTE(Daevos @ Feb 22 2005, 04:51 PM)
So I transed Magic for nothing then, since I really cant think of a way that it has helped me. While on my side, I could look at the multiple counters against physical damage and be amazed.
57166
With all of the multiple counters to physical damage, a mage on average still takes 1100-1500 damage per warrior combo. Since most mages also only have about 2.5k health at best, warrior damage against mages is pretty darn good. It is especially good, considering that a person must choose between healing health and healing limbs. On the other hand, as a merian I did 1100-1200 damage to Terenas using fire (He has a level two penalty against it). Using Surge, Terenas can jump to above 4.5k health. 1200 out of 4.5k health (even with the periodic mana drain from surge) is a lot easier to manage than 1300 out of 2.5k health.
You are even better off Daevos, since you do not have a weakness to fire and your health level is significantly greater than Terenas’ (even though you have a sip penalty). Even with the scaling up of the damage because of your greater health, I seriously doubt you are taking more than 1300 damage per average merian staff attack. Even in a full demesne, the damage you are taking is easily manageable if your healing is not disrupted by stupidity. You can't say stun is a great disruption to your healing, because I’ve been in an aquamancer demesne and stun does not disrupt my heals enough to cause me trouble when trying to eat sparkleberry, twirl my staff, and sip health.
Daevos2005-02-22 21:56:44
I take 1500 from your staff, and that is ignoring the passive damage you are also able to afflict. I also have a problem with that comment of yours that stun doesnt slow down healing.
Unknown2005-02-22 22:37:40
Also, an aquamancer can dilute, cutting the amount you heal per sip, thus increasing the amount of damage they can stack.
Terenas2005-02-22 22:38:43
QUOTE(Anonymous @ Feb 22 2005, 10:37 PM)
Also, an aquamancer can dilute, cutting the amount you heal per sip, thus increasing the amount of damage they can stack.
57419
That's why you keep your vials in your pack, duh!
/sarcasm
Gwylifar2005-02-22 22:40:21
Some of us are just waiting for our turn to be complained about.
Revan2005-02-22 22:40:56
Because everyone likes to see this:
get health from pack
You must have equilibrium.
get health from pack.
You must have equilibrium.
get health from pack.
You get a health vial from a canvas backpack.
Aquamancer: DILUTED!!!!!!
get health from pack.....
get health from pack
You must have equilibrium.
get health from pack.
You must have equilibrium.
get health from pack.
You get a health vial from a canvas backpack.
Aquamancer: DILUTED!!!!!!
get health from pack.....
Unknown2005-02-22 22:55:12
Or even better....
get health from pack.
You are paralyzed and unable to do that.
focus body
You are too impatient to focus on anything.
smoke @pipe1
There is nothing in that pipe to smoke.
outr coltsfoot
put coltsfoot in pipe
inr coltsfoot
You are paralyzed and unable to drop anything.
(And yes, that is what it shows when you try to put something in your pipe while paralyzed)
Noooo! Thank the Gods for focus mind.
get health from pack.
You are paralyzed and unable to do that.
focus body
You are too impatient to focus on anything.
smoke @pipe1
There is nothing in that pipe to smoke.
outr coltsfoot
put coltsfoot in pipe
inr coltsfoot
You are paralyzed and unable to drop anything.
(And yes, that is what it shows when you try to put something in your pipe while paralyzed)
Noooo! Thank the Gods for focus mind.
Geb2005-02-22 22:55:48
QUOTE(Daevos @ Feb 22 2005, 10:56 PM)
I take 1500 from your staff, and that is ignoring the passive damage you are also able to afflict. I also have a problem with that comment of yours that stun doesnt slow down healing.
57389
Perhaps it slows yours down significantly, but it does not slow mine down. I still just see a person who desires to be unkillable by damage. It is not like I see you die to many mages in one on one fights, but I do see many mages die to you under the same circumstances.
Some people need to realize that on any given day anyone can be defeated by anyone else. This attitude that thier combat skills are so great that the only way they can be defeated is by some overpowered ability is nonsense.
Like I have stated before, I've fought in geomancer and aquamancer demesnes now. Both have stun, both causes prone, both can be fused with runes. I was able to take the damage an average Merian/Viscanti can produce in a demesne via active and passive means. I do not see why you are having so many problems with it. *Actually, you don't have many problems with it. You just want to have no problems at all with it.
Daevos2005-02-22 23:23:54
QUOTE(geb @ Nov 15 2004, 01:50 AM)
I've sent up my own assessment of the combat skills available to Aquamancers to my guild's representative to the gods. I did not state anything about the damage ranges because Koan had that underwraps, but I did make statements about the lack of synergy between the skills. Here is what I sent:
Classlead Input:
The Aquamancer is a very limited archetype with only one means of eliminating a target. The skills possessed by the archetype lack the synergy needed to allow an Aquamancer to overcome the defenses of an opponent highly resistant to magic and elemental damage. Damage being the archetype only means of eliminating the target is inadequate considering that the class also lacks any means of stripping a target of its defenses.
In this write up, I will comment on a few of the Archetype’s most prominent spells. I will show why they are lacking and what can possibly be done to correct the problem.
Aquamancy
Tsunami-
Enemies are forced prone if they lack the levitation defense. Easily countered with levitation. An Aquamancer does not have any means of stripping a person of levitation, let alone any other defense. Therefore, an opponent with levitation will remain immune to the effects of this spell the entire fight.
Possible Solution (Perhaps turn tsunami into a periodic balance stealing attack. It will better hinder the attacks of an opponent, while still allowing them to heal. Or, give Aquamancers a means of stripping defenses. Without defense stripping, this spell is really not worth casting against anyone but a new player)
   Â
Typhoon-
Painfully forces flyers to the surface of the demesne. It has no effect on people already on the surface. Also, levitation will eliminate the damage taken from this attack. Any fighter worth their salt will have levitation up, so this spell is only good as a means of keeping people from fly in the demesne.
Possible Solution (Allow typhoon to do periodic damage to enemies regardless of their flight status. Make the damage blunt damage, and possibly have the damage increased if the person is frozen. This would give some synergy between icefloe, freeze, and this spell.)
Icefloe-
Passive periodic freeze attack, no damage. This spell is easily countered by sipping fire.
Possible Solution (Refer to Typhoon.)
Continued in next post.
Classlead Input:
The Aquamancer is a very limited archetype with only one means of eliminating a target. The skills possessed by the archetype lack the synergy needed to allow an Aquamancer to overcome the defenses of an opponent highly resistant to magic and elemental damage. Damage being the archetype only means of eliminating the target is inadequate considering that the class also lacks any means of stripping a target of its defenses.
In this write up, I will comment on a few of the Archetype’s most prominent spells. I will show why they are lacking and what can possibly be done to correct the problem.
Aquamancy
Tsunami-
Enemies are forced prone if they lack the levitation defense. Easily countered with levitation. An Aquamancer does not have any means of stripping a person of levitation, let alone any other defense. Therefore, an opponent with levitation will remain immune to the effects of this spell the entire fight.
Possible Solution (Perhaps turn tsunami into a periodic balance stealing attack. It will better hinder the attacks of an opponent, while still allowing them to heal. Or, give Aquamancers a means of stripping defenses. Without defense stripping, this spell is really not worth casting against anyone but a new player)
   Â
Typhoon-
Painfully forces flyers to the surface of the demesne. It has no effect on people already on the surface. Also, levitation will eliminate the damage taken from this attack. Any fighter worth their salt will have levitation up, so this spell is only good as a means of keeping people from fly in the demesne.
Possible Solution (Allow typhoon to do periodic damage to enemies regardless of their flight status. Make the damage blunt damage, and possibly have the damage increased if the person is frozen. This would give some synergy between icefloe, freeze, and this spell.)
Icefloe-
Passive periodic freeze attack, no damage. This spell is easily countered by sipping fire.
Possible Solution (Refer to Typhoon.)
Continued in next post.
7146
Daevos2005-02-22 23:24:12
QUOTE(geb @ Nov 15 2004, 01:52 AM)
Flood-
Allows one to establish a room with water, leading to a possible meld or the use of some of the room/demesne Aquamancy abilities. Problem is that it costs 1 power to cast. The cost itself is a bit prohibitive, considering that power reserves are not naturally regenerated.Â
Possible Solution (Just make the cost of eliminating taint or another demesne cost 1 power, or actually a bit more. Right now, 1 power is a bargain when it comes to destroying another person’s demesne. I suggest that the cost of using flash flood be raised to at least 5 power, but the cost of using normal flood be set to 0 power.)
Sweetfount-
Heals caster and allies. An excellent spell, but just have a suggestion to boost it a bit for use against enemies. Give it an effect of stripping defenses periodically from enemies. It would then give other Aquamancy skills like Tsunami and Icefloe greater chances to be effective.
Turtle-
Summon a turtle at the cost of 10 power. Does minor damage, and gives waterwalking if it is being ridden. The power cost is completely out of sync. The pet disappears after the caster departs the realms, and the pet offers nothing of great worth in extra combat ability or general utility.
Possible Solution
Runes
Runes supply the user with little in the way of abilities to work towards a decent affliction lock. The rune list is very incomplete, and a bit too heavy on afflictions that cause fear as a secondary component. Runes are expensive to create, and really only seem to be cost effective when put in statues. Unfortunately, statues must be stationary, outside, on a road, or in an urban area. There is no way to actually kill an enemy with runes, unless the slinger is lucky enough to have Othala give the target sunallergy or crotamine.
Possible Solution (Add more afflictions to the list. Anorexia, Relapsing, and Aeon would be decent.)
Sling and Staffsling-
Sling runes at a target in the room with you (sling) or in the adjacent room (staffsling). Slow on balance recover (Over 2 seconds for a Merian). There is no way to even harass a fighter with sling, since the target will have easily recovered from curing the affliction long before the slinger has a chance to sling a new rune.
Possible Solution (Lower the base balance recover on runes to around 1.5 seconds. With a level two balance recovery advantage, the recover will take about 1.05 seconds. Still a bit over herb recover, so in no way overpowered. Also allow the slinger to sling right before or right after casting an illusion. The only way a single rune can possibly be effective is if the illusions can be used to disrupt healing. (Like bites and illusions are used in Achaea.)
(continued in next post.)
Allows one to establish a room with water, leading to a possible meld or the use of some of the room/demesne Aquamancy abilities. Problem is that it costs 1 power to cast. The cost itself is a bit prohibitive, considering that power reserves are not naturally regenerated.Â
Possible Solution (Just make the cost of eliminating taint or another demesne cost 1 power, or actually a bit more. Right now, 1 power is a bargain when it comes to destroying another person’s demesne. I suggest that the cost of using flash flood be raised to at least 5 power, but the cost of using normal flood be set to 0 power.)
Sweetfount-
Heals caster and allies. An excellent spell, but just have a suggestion to boost it a bit for use against enemies. Give it an effect of stripping defenses periodically from enemies. It would then give other Aquamancy skills like Tsunami and Icefloe greater chances to be effective.
Turtle-
Summon a turtle at the cost of 10 power. Does minor damage, and gives waterwalking if it is being ridden. The power cost is completely out of sync. The pet disappears after the caster departs the realms, and the pet offers nothing of great worth in extra combat ability or general utility.
Possible Solution
Runes
Runes supply the user with little in the way of abilities to work towards a decent affliction lock. The rune list is very incomplete, and a bit too heavy on afflictions that cause fear as a secondary component. Runes are expensive to create, and really only seem to be cost effective when put in statues. Unfortunately, statues must be stationary, outside, on a road, or in an urban area. There is no way to actually kill an enemy with runes, unless the slinger is lucky enough to have Othala give the target sunallergy or crotamine.
Possible Solution (Add more afflictions to the list. Anorexia, Relapsing, and Aeon would be decent.)
Sling and Staffsling-
Sling runes at a target in the room with you (sling) or in the adjacent room (staffsling). Slow on balance recover (Over 2 seconds for a Merian). There is no way to even harass a fighter with sling, since the target will have easily recovered from curing the affliction long before the slinger has a chance to sling a new rune.
Possible Solution (Lower the base balance recover on runes to around 1.5 seconds. With a level two balance recovery advantage, the recover will take about 1.05 seconds. Still a bit over herb recover, so in no way overpowered. Also allow the slinger to sling right before or right after casting an illusion. The only way a single rune can possibly be effective is if the illusions can be used to disrupt healing. (Like bites and illusions are used in Achaea.)
(continued in next post.)
7147
Daevos2005-02-22 23:24:45
QUOTE(geb @ Nov 15 2004, 01:53 AM)
Othala-
Cost two power and gives a random affliction. If it works like Loki from Achaea, it will normally give stupidity, asthma, sensitivity, fear, sleep, reckless, or ugliness. Using two power with only a chance of giving an affliction not on the normal rune list is not very cost effective.
Possible Solution (Remove the power cost. The monetary cost to create the rune is prohibitive enough. Using the rune in a sling is at best a hit or miss proposition.)
Supersling-
Cost three power and allows user to sling two runes at once. This attack would be more effective if the rune list was not so limited. Right now, there is really no need to use this attack because of the slow recovery speed and the lack of effective rune combos to sling.
Possible Solution (Same as runes overall, increase the range of afflictions runes can give. Allow the marrying of illusions and supersling to allow the slinger to work towards a possible affliction lock.)
Illusions
The Illusion skillset seems to be made with the idea to compliment the rune set. Unfortunately, the set of afflictions that the rune set supplies is pretty incomplete. Illusions are unable to help in the process of moving towards some effective affliction application, because the afflictions needed to accomplish that are not available. Illusions do allow the caster to give mental afflictions, but the afflictions themselves are at best a nuisance to the receiver.
Phantom-
Gives mental afflictions in a manner like hellsight in Achaea, but far more limited. The mental afflictions given seem to center around afflictions that give fear as a secondary affliction. The afflictions are harassment at best, and most of the time it is probably just best to point ones staff at the enemy.
Possible Solution (The solution to this skill would be to increase the effectiveness of the rune skillset. Then afflicting someone with phantoms would increase the healing workload of the afflicted and possibly allow the rune slinger to work towards an effective affliction combination.)
(continued in next post.)
Cost two power and gives a random affliction. If it works like Loki from Achaea, it will normally give stupidity, asthma, sensitivity, fear, sleep, reckless, or ugliness. Using two power with only a chance of giving an affliction not on the normal rune list is not very cost effective.
Possible Solution (Remove the power cost. The monetary cost to create the rune is prohibitive enough. Using the rune in a sling is at best a hit or miss proposition.)
Supersling-
Cost three power and allows user to sling two runes at once. This attack would be more effective if the rune list was not so limited. Right now, there is really no need to use this attack because of the slow recovery speed and the lack of effective rune combos to sling.
Possible Solution (Same as runes overall, increase the range of afflictions runes can give. Allow the marrying of illusions and supersling to allow the slinger to work towards a possible affliction lock.)
Illusions
The Illusion skillset seems to be made with the idea to compliment the rune set. Unfortunately, the set of afflictions that the rune set supplies is pretty incomplete. Illusions are unable to help in the process of moving towards some effective affliction application, because the afflictions needed to accomplish that are not available. Illusions do allow the caster to give mental afflictions, but the afflictions themselves are at best a nuisance to the receiver.
Phantom-
Gives mental afflictions in a manner like hellsight in Achaea, but far more limited. The mental afflictions given seem to center around afflictions that give fear as a secondary affliction. The afflictions are harassment at best, and most of the time it is probably just best to point ones staff at the enemy.
Possible Solution (The solution to this skill would be to increase the effectiveness of the rune skillset. Then afflicting someone with phantoms would increase the healing workload of the afflicted and possibly allow the rune slinger to work towards an effective affliction combination.)
(continued in next post.)
7148
Geb2005-02-22 23:30:45
You know that was sent up before any of the changes, correct?
Daevos2005-02-22 23:35:20
QUOTE(geb @ Nov 15 2004, 01:53 AM)
Reality-
At the cost of eight power, this spell will essentially give the same afflictions phantom does to everyone in the room but the caster. Have the same problems as phantom, with the added problem of hitting allies.
Possible Solution (Have reality work on people on the casters enemy list only. Reality then will be a spell that can be cast when allies and are in the room. The solutions stated for phantoms will work for reality too.)
Summary
Outside of damage, Aquamancers lack any means of defeating a target. Normally, that would not be a problem if the Aquamancer generated a respectable amount of damage. Unfortunately, the damage of the archetype is moderate at best, and limited in scope (Refer to Koan’s report for numbers). The archetype is unable to tailor its damage to the target’s weaknesses, and is unable to strip the target of defenses to create an opening. Against a well prepared target with decent magic and elemental resists, an Aquamancer is at a significant disadvantage. The archetype needs to have a bit more synergy created between the guildskills to allow the archetype to defeat targets with damage or to give the archetype alternative means of defeating targets when damage is not an option.
At the cost of eight power, this spell will essentially give the same afflictions phantom does to everyone in the room but the caster. Have the same problems as phantom, with the added problem of hitting allies.
Possible Solution (Have reality work on people on the casters enemy list only. Reality then will be a spell that can be cast when allies and are in the room. The solutions stated for phantoms will work for reality too.)
Summary
Outside of damage, Aquamancers lack any means of defeating a target. Normally, that would not be a problem if the Aquamancer generated a respectable amount of damage. Unfortunately, the damage of the archetype is moderate at best, and limited in scope (Refer to Koan’s report for numbers). The archetype is unable to tailor its damage to the target’s weaknesses, and is unable to strip the target of defenses to create an opening. Against a well prepared target with decent magic and elemental resists, an Aquamancer is at a significant disadvantage. The archetype needs to have a bit more synergy created between the guildskills to allow the archetype to defeat targets with damage or to give the archetype alternative means of defeating targets when damage is not an option.
7149
Just thought I would share your opinion of what the Aquamancers needed to be balanced, though that was before fuse and needlerain, as well as faster demense effects.
Moving on, I'm slightly annoyed by your assumption that I have no sense of balance and only consider things overpowered if they kill me. The Aquamancer demense is hands down the strongest in the game right now, because of the passive stun. And you say, its only 2 of every 9 seconds, but thats alot when the mage loses no offense for that stun, and can suppliment it with shield stun. Also the stun from Geomancer's demense is shorter and can be blocked by levitation. You also have needlerain stripping defenses passively, including enchantment defenses. As well as the barnone strongest unblockable attack in the game.
One more thing, you know me not if you think that I consider myself to be invincible and only killable by overpowered skills. I actually dont care that much if I lose in a duel, as long as I learn from it. As long as I can see that there is a mistake that I made, or a counter that I wasnt aware of.
Ceres2005-02-22 23:40:26
Geomancer stun is 1.3 seconds every 10, if they don't have levitating up.
Geb2005-02-22 23:44:45
QUOTE(Daevos @ Feb 23 2005, 12:35 AM)
Just thought I would share your opinion of what the Aquamancers needed to be balanced, though that was before fuse and needlerain, as well as faster demense effects.
57485
You do know that levitation is stripped in the Geomancer demesne? Do you also know that after the levitation is stripped, the geo demesne will also cause a person prone and possibly break a leg? How about the poison gas causing hunger? Oh yea, you are Viscanti so the poison does not effect you. I guess out of sight, out of mind.
Now on to what I sent up to our first Envoy, (who happened to be Revan by the way). What I sent up was taking into account that we did not have the abilities we have now. That list was sent up long before the changes to the demesne, the addition of fuse, and the increased viability of phantoms. Have you seen me asking for increased sling speeds and such recently? With the abilities we have now, I have not requested the other items on the list. You pull out a list from back when Aquamancers hands down had the worst demesne, and bring it forth now like it really means anything.
Daevos2005-02-22 23:51:33
I brought it up, since I didnt think you had the worst demense even then. And I think your demense now is too powerful, hell I think all the demenses are too powerful but the Aquamancers especially. Also thought several of your suggestions even then were over the top, and am glad that Revan tailored it down with some help.
Now on Geomancers, their demenses just got a boost and that was the original topic of this thread. Lodestone that used to be completely useless, now knocks down and stuns briefly if levitation isnt up. Also Stonerain that also use to have little use now helps to hinder movement. Giving them four useful demense effects instead of two. But I still think the Aquamancer have a better demense.
On a sidenote though, this topic is amusing since people once complained about the Admins downgraded physical defense skills because warriors were hitting for like 300 and such in a combo instead of just giving warriors a offensive boost and leaving the skills as is. The part amuses me is how this complaint differs from that one though I agree that demenses are too strong in their current form.
Now on Geomancers, their demenses just got a boost and that was the original topic of this thread. Lodestone that used to be completely useless, now knocks down and stuns briefly if levitation isnt up. Also Stonerain that also use to have little use now helps to hinder movement. Giving them four useful demense effects instead of two. But I still think the Aquamancer have a better demense.
On a sidenote though, this topic is amusing since people once complained about the Admins downgraded physical defense skills because warriors were hitting for like 300 and such in a combo instead of just giving warriors a offensive boost and leaving the skills as is. The part amuses me is how this complaint differs from that one though I agree that demenses are too strong in their current form.
Terenas2005-02-23 00:01:29
Hmm, what Geomancy effect strips levitation anyway? Haven't fought any Geomancer since the changes but I bet they're significantly better now.