Sounds fair enough to me. Not what I personally think, but reasonable.

Ooo... so really we could say the events post just means they are different!

yes... like oil and water.

Thats all I have been saying the entire time.

So nature magics and cosmic magics are different... wow, that was really all you were arguing? I thought it was that cosmic planes/magics are unnatural and anti-Nature in every way.

They can't mix... they are seperate.

different does not mean seperate.

is oil and water not an understanble analogy anymore?

Yeah, but all you had to say was that you can't skillchoice select any nature-based skill along with any cosmic-based skill. Your point would have been proven. You can't use nature magics and cosmic magics together.

Thats not what I was arguing, I was talking about Nature and the cosmic planes.

that would not be a valid argument, as you can't pick elementalism and cosmic, nor can you pick knighthood and cosmic, but those are not anethema to eachother. (as seen by a city nexus)

We are talking about the planes. The planes are like oil and water. Cosmic being oil, Ethereal being water.

Anyway, to pull only one definition out of the many that give a clear picture that the word does not merely mean "different" is counter productive.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore.

Its an age old argument.

Celest and Celestia is just as much inherently against Serenwilde as Magnagora and Nil.

The rest is just politics. Like Germany teaming up with Japan, even though the Japanese are far from Aryian.

I also agree Celest is supposed to be as much against Serenwilde as Magnagora is. That doesn't change one thing I've said about cosmic magics/planes and Nature.

Yet you argue that OOCly, there is nothing to make them against eachother? you confuse me.

No, I argue that cosmic planes and magics aren't unnatural and anti-nature. The cities have reasons to hate each other, yes: Serenwilde has history with Celest, and the Taint with Magnagora.

However, just because Japan wars with Germany, that doesn't mean a German is going to explode and die from eating Japanese food, because it is it antithetical to his nature.

(Edit: A bad analogy, I know... but its a pretty bad analogy to compare Serenwilde to one (japan? germany?) and Magnagora to the other.)

It's not my job to police everyone else's honor, only my own.

Ewww, you watched it? I think I got ten minutes in. I reached for the remote to delete it and TiVo thanked me.

To be blunt. Yes, Nature is not Life. Nature is the matrix, the womb where things are born and live then they die. Life/Death. All that is spawned in Nature is doomed to terminate. Whatever intervenes in these cycles is unnatural. Therfore it's the enemy of Nature. If Light wishes to perpetuate someone's existance as a shard of cosmic energy, then it is unnatural as it opposes Nature's rule.

Also, you may not notice that when you survey it tells you the environment of the place and location. There may be a forest on Light, but hey... light is a place of liquid light, no components can't really be there, also it might as well be an illusion. The giggling angel that is mentioned on the log you submitted migth as well be the caster of said illusion.

Also, the greatest of illusion is: that you might as well consider it true if you believe the illusion is real. So, yes, there is a fores in Celestia... a "real" forest, but in reality it's a trickery to your perceptions. It is not a true forest.


If Nature is anything, it is struggle:
The wolf hunting the deer, the bison trying to survive the winter.

Nature is "alive" but it is also "dead"
In fact better said, Nature is the giver of life and also the ender of life.

Go take a look at:

Nature's Aspect of Death, as embodied by Iname

Nature's Life Aspect as embodied by Iname

Take a look into the Thesaurus for anathema.


Hint: It says about set apart, hate, etc... So, if one thing is anathema to the other and are apart, you can consider that they detest/abhor each other.

Regarding Magics, the reason why things from cosmic planes are present in Prime/Nature: is because PEOPLE SUMMONED THOSE CREATURES. By no means did they appear from someone's matrix, or are they the incarnate life force of a being found in nature. In other words it's something like going:

"Luciphage, I summon your vassals to assist me! My soul is yours!"

Here comes a firey pentagram spewing demons and nightmares, yours to control.
Are the demons from this world? No, they are from another plane manifested in this existance through the channeling of your incantations. Nature would probably rject them but nature is unconscious in so many ways. JUst because an angel lingers in Nature, doesn't mean Nature wouldn't reject it or better said: assimilate it.

Edit: Changed something to be more congruent with Lusternia.

Ok, look. Clearly there is a bit of confusion going on so before we continue I will take a moment to explain exactly what I am saying.

- I am arguing that cosmic planes/magics are not inherently anti-Nature.
- I am arguing that the cities who use them may be against Nature but it isn't just because they are linked to cosmic planes.

Now, let's keep slogging on.

That is a very pretty way of saying something. However, I see Nature as a little more inclusive than that. From my interpretation of what you are saying, Nature isn't Life, it is the environment in which Life exists. Thus, the Druids aren't really followers of Nature, they are followers of Life - because they work with forests and living things, not purified and static elements like wind and earth (that which surrounds Life).

I think the problem here is clearly a conceptual one, in that what you define Nature as, I don't, and vice versa. Maybe there isn't a right or wrong answer here, but by my definition, cosmic planes and magics aren't anti-Nature.

Totally in agreement there. This is what I mention when I'm talking about undeath.

Unfortunately, that is a rather big if. I just don't know where you are getting the idea that the Supernals (and somehow all cosmic planes) want to convert all of Prime into cosmic energy 'shards'. You need to justify this interpretation.

By all means, I encourage you to visit the Valley of Blissful Rapture in northern Celestia, and try survey yourself.

Yes, sure, it could be. But if we just say that anything we don't like is really just an illusion, doesn't that sort of negate the point of room descriptions everywhere? You can't just make up something to justify your own view against what is shown in Lusternia.

Indeed, and although most people may think that Nil is a horrific, demonically scarred plane... its only that they can't see through the illusion like I can. In actual fact, Nil is carpeted in wild roses and entirely made out of chocolate.

Yes, a well-used cliche. However, apply this in isolation and suddenly you find that the on-going struggle between Celest and Magnagora for survival means they are much more in-tune with Nature than Serenwilde is. Nature is more than this.

I hazard to say that if it is dead, it isn't Nature anymore. Death (the process) is clearly a part of the natural cycles, but it isn't like you can say the dead wood that builds houses in Celest is as much a part of Nature as the living trees in Serenwilde, can you? Not without abandoning everything as being natural.

Did, but unfortunately my understanding is not summarised by two Magic:TG cards. Nice pictures though.

Yep, I know what anathema means. Hadn't heard of the separation definition until Daganev pointed it out though. You can go look up 'Nature' in a dictionary if you want... I doubt that it will tell you a fraction of what Nature really is.

(Another quote would go here)

And by this argument, Fae are only present in (prime) Nature because people summoned them. Does that mean we can argue that the Ethereal is anti-Nature?

Edit: Interesting... there appears to be a limit on quotes in a single post. Curiouser and curiouser.

I can't really read that post... please edit it.


However, the question comes into play where Humans fit and by humans I mean all the races. Are people part of "Nature" or not?

If they are then I can see your point, but then nothing, not even the taint is anti nature.

If people are not part of nature, then they have an interesting role, and Trees and animals are as much a part of the environment as the winds and oceans are.

You'll have to explain that Daganev, because I'm not sure how you got that out of what I just said.

IC answer: Only if they respect and integrate into the cycles of Nature.

(OOC answer: Yes.)

I said I hadn't read your post because I couldn't read it. Its much better now though.

If "humans" are part of nature, then so is the Taint. But really the races are not part of nature, because they are elder gods that got broken and sharded.

If people were part of nature there would be no need to "heal" anything.

It states clearly in the histories that the people always used the Fae in the land, but only recently where they able to completely summon them as they do. Thats the difference between the fae and cosmic entities. They allready exist in nature because they kind of define nature

Don't get that, at -all-.


One elfen woman, Ellindel Treeheart, was the first to contact the fae, the spirits of the earth, who were dying. She drew these nature spirits forth to take physical form, and thus was able to heal them. She taught other elfen how to contact and heal the fae, and they worshipped the earth and called themselves the wiccan.
Then, three paragraphs and no major events later, both the Elemental and Cosmic planes were discovered. What you are saying is false.