hmm, guess I missread that the fist time.

I was under the impression that Ellindel regulalrly talked to the fae, but only when they were dieing did she bring them to prime to heal them.

Well, that's probably true. That she spoke with the fae before healing them, that is.

To Daganev:

Not only did Kiakoda have the power of a vernal god, but she also drew considerable power from, and thus empowered, the forests of Lusternia. Though none of the mortal races, or even the other vernal gods, seem to have been aware of the fae or the great spirits of nature at this point in history, scholars have confirmed that she was in constant touch with Faethorn Realm on the ethereal plane. Most wiccans and druids believe she hid the existence of the fae in order protect them from the Soulless Gods, while her detractors (mostly nihilist scholars) believe she did so in order to hoard the power of the fae for herself.

Kiakoda may have been the first being on Prime that became aware of the spirits of the surrounding nature but decided to hide their origins. Probably until after the Vernal wars when the land was in waste, and Nature suffering was that the fae manifested to Ellindel for assistance.




-I am arguing that Nature is Nature, Cosmics and Astran have their own "nature" but it is completely opposite and counter to Nature. So therefore, imo, Cosmic is anti-Nature. Especially when it seems like Ethereal hates/rejects cosmic magic: being anathema.

-I am arguing that this Cosmic power that the drive for cities to expand and constantly seek the Cosmic power to influence their daily lives in Prime, they are linked to the cosmic planes and in reality more oblivious of Nature. Had they not discovered the Cosmic powers they may have developed as cities but they would probably be more concerned with their surrnounding nature.





New Celest struggled and survived, yearning for the days of old and hoping to see the return of the Empire's former glory when all the Basin of Life was united under the Light.


However, there is a harder side to Sacraments that involve branding those who seek to subvert the Light.

the Holy Supernal will send forth an angelic companion to assist in the great works of the Light.

an angelic companion who helps in the good works in the name of the Light.

The Holy Emanations, like the Holy Supernals of Celestia, are enigmatic immortal beings of Light and Love.

Cosmic magic involves the manipulation of the fabric of creation itself.


Doesn't this seem anti-Nature (unnatural)? Meddling with the very fabrics of creation, working to make the Light the "Universal Dominator" on the Basin. Aiming to dominate and unite the people of the Basin (Prime Natural Material Plane) under the banner of the Light and adopt the philosophy of the Light. It was the finding of the liquid power that triggered people's desire for expansion and bring this cosmic power onto the surrounding environment.



LOLLY: (garbled) . . . and metal everywhere, but the Grand Cipher says it's not real metal


9.3.8 THE ILLUSIONS SKILL (Secondary)
Illusions is a highly developed magical art, allowing the adept to weave
illusions from light and shadow. Some illusions affect what others see
and perceive, while others actually insert illusions into the minds.
While illusionists are popularly known for spectacular pyrotechnics
displays during festivals, they also make great spies, able to use their
glamours as the ultimate form of infiltration.


Me? I'm not denying nothing I don't like. I'm just assessing how a forest can ever be created and exist on a place that is void of components? Is made of liquid light therefore no solid mass (soil) that can sustain a forest. Also, remember that every plane has their own properties, and that cosmic magic endevours on playing with the fabric of creation and can create illusions: a forest. It is an illusion of a forest, imo. One can think it is a forest, but it really isn't but as far as you are concerned, it is there so it must be "real".

Notice how Lolly saw in Astral a thing made out of metal in Astral, but it wasn't real metal. The same is applicable to your "forest".



I can see that you are hallucinating when visiting Nil. Nil looks like it does because it has it's own properties and was twisted by Kethuru via the Taint, or else it would be very similar looking to Celestia, probably made of another "susbtance". If you see roses and chocolates, yes, that is the illusion embedded in your mind. Go take a bite at Gorgulu for me.




Survival? Celest and Magnagora's struggle takes place up into the Cosmic planes. One side finds to survive its opposite and expand. Also, don't say I used a cliche. I have the impression that it is you who has the ongoing cliche on your views of Nature: trees+animal+human must equal=Life so Nature is Life. Completely forgetting the cylces of Nature and that Nature per se isn't alive, it's just the originator of life and that it's cycle are also the ones that decree the fate of all that spawns from Nature: death. Also, how can you be so strange? How can Celest and Magnagora that seek to expand be more in-tune with Nature? Of course, I forgot that Nature loved to be cut of trees and be exploited for it's minerals and natural resources to make cities.
Nature is endless cycles, Nature is a web. Nature is Life Giver and Life Ender. Nature is the Nourisher: Nature is: Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva: Birther, Preserver, and Destroyer.



Oh, so when an animal dies so another one can feed this isn't natural? When an animal dies, and is deteriorated by the cycles of Nature this means that Death isn't an inherently part of Nature? Oh my, then what is death if it is so intrinsictly connected with the natural order of things? Also, have you even bothered to read my posts? Nature is void from artificiality: cities are artificial, cities are unnatural. Magnagora and Celest are artificial. Things taken from nature: destroyed where extracted from their cycles and terminated to be placed into artificial use. This is very different from death by devoration, death by natural hazzard, death by age.



The pictures was the least thing you needed to pay attention too, Elryn. Notice how both cards are name Iname, one dictates Life the other Death. And they are "spirits". Take a look at their text:

Iname revels in sadistic glee at the crushing of souls, but soon mourns the lives so cruelly cut short. So the cycle begins anew.

Iname rejoices in the dawn of a new life, but soon becomes jealous of the simple joys denied him by his station. So the cycle begins anew.


Nature is embodied here. The cycles: things are born and live. Then their mortality is consumed upon their death. Then new beings are born, and such is the continuation of the cycles. Nature isn't an exact entity. Whether someone dies doesn't mean Nature is dying. Nature spawned it, it will spawn another on to live and doomed to die.



Again, I repeat myself... Have you been reading my posts? Do you know what is the evolution of language? A thousand years from now Nature had a completely different definition of what is today, in fact new concepts have been added and sometimes such concepts where by themselves independant. Such is the case, as this evolution of language continues, you'll inevitable (if still alive) see additional concepts be added into the definition of Nature in 100 years from now, modifying the original concept.

Now tell me, how can an ancient druid have the knowledge of what is subatomic? Because Nature's current concept may be translated to include infinity, from the microcosm to the macrocosm, from every living being to the very interaction of cells: all of creation and interactions in creation.

In Lusternia Nature is limited to the primordial and primitive states of Prime and it's encompassing phenomena and energies manifested in the Ethereal and Prime plane: material physical world and the world of the spirits of nature.



Elryn, this isn't the first time I've had this discussion with you. It's repetitive trying to repeat myself when you constantly attack my arguments with things I've already talked about.

To answer your question. No, Ethereal isn't anti-Nature. Ethereal is an intrinsic part of Nature comprised of the life forces of every being and the spiritual world as perceived by those adherents of Nature's Order. Ethereal is so connected with Prime that the things that effect Prime also affect Ethereal, also all forests found on prime exist too in the Ethereal.

The fae already existed around prime but not in physical form, they existed in Ethereal form. Until they were summoned into their physical state.

You discern:
You stand within the Capital City of the Mighty Dominion of Magnagora.
Your environment conforms to that of tainted urban.
You are in the Prime Material Plane.

A rooftop garden.
The bright sun shines down, blanketing you with its life-giving warmth. A circular staircase leads up from the laboratory below onto the roof of the tower here. D'Murani Tower is slightly taller than the city walls, and the Blasted Land can be seen spreading out in the east. On the top of the tower here, rich soil has been transplanted to grow a large garden. A skilled landscaper has planted flowers in such a way that a pattern of vibrant colours emerges, dazzling in contrast to the black marble of the tower and the filthy haze of Magnagora that is visible to the west. An inscribed crimson mask wreathed in flames stands here atop a pillar of obsidian. Magistra Arilyon d'Irande, Tempest Arcanus is here, shrouded. She wields a twisted staff in her
left hand. High Priestess Nayl D'Iasani, Paramour of Pain is here. She wields a kite shield in her left hand and a fairy's wand in her right.
You see a single exit leading down.


Life healthy plants living in a Tainted Urban environment.

Yes, but wouldn't you say that the Taint simply invaded Prime changing most of the already existing Nature into something new, and that the zoo in Magnagora is more likely as an artificial biome than an entirely real independant forest biome? Now that the Taint is no longer under Kethuru's touch, I am sure that Nature and the current strand of Taint can coexist with the Taint not being completely hazardous to Nature. Thanks to the Taint wars, the Taint managed to connect itself with the surrounding environment: Glomdoring is a clear example of this.

An interesting discovery. Mind you, they are only flowers and it seems like healthy (untainted) soil has been transported for them to grow in. I don't see that as entirely convincing.

To me it proves that the current strand of Taint isn't so hazardous to Nature as it's original form, which means Nature has become somewhat tolerant to the taint.

Nature may be able to survive when enclosed by the Taint, that's something that is possible. But Nature cannot ever become 'tolerant' to it in the sense that they coexist together, or that the Taint becomes 'part' of nature. They are utterly exclusive.

I believe that Nature has the capacity of tolerating Taint, just as it grew to tolerate the influence of the Soulless when in captivity within the earth. Of course, this "toleration" or healing process was aided by the caretakers of Nature. But in the case of the Taint, the Taint ceased to be completely destructive, or else you would see everything continuing changing influenced by the Taint. If an artificial environment like a zoo is capable of living inside something that once was completely adverse to it's natural origins means that tolerance has been acquired. Also, the Glomdoring is proof of a Nature shaped by the Taint and that even despise the mass impact around that zone, Nature has still managed to spawn life. Though, yes, maybe the Taint would in the end be rejected by Nature if the Taint acquired a more dynamic role.

Edit: Made a correction.

Then what is glomdoring if not a forest that has addapted to the Taint?
It lives and breathes and grows, it just has funky colors.

Not one of these says that the Light wants to turn Prime into cosmic energy. Please find a reference that does. This says that followers of the philosophy of Light want to aggressively convert others to that philosophy. That is one reason Serenwilde would hate Celest. It is unrelated to the discussion about Cosmic/Nature.

This is a reference to the Astral plane. Something looked like metal, but was made up of some other material. Its not some kind of illusion cast by a demon on every member of the party.

Fair enough. Then every time an adventurer transverses to a cosmic plane, I expect all their herbs to disappear, since the components that make them up don't exist there. Not to mention their clothes, weapons, etc.

You're not following what I'm saying. If you want to make a certain argument, then apply it to all relevant areas. If forests on Celestia are an illusion, then so is the desert landscape of Nil. Why am I not affected by evil visions when I visit Nil, but I am when I visit Celestia?

I include the cycles of living when I talk about Life, Desdemona. You really make far too much assumptions without reading what I'm trying to say. How can I be so strange? I'm applying your argument.

Actually, this has been a continuing point of confusion. I often take the reasoning behind one of your arguments and apply it to a different situation to show how it fails. That doesn't mean I am seriously arguing your point in that situation, I am trying to highlight its flaw. I have used this technique twice now to extend your arguments to the Ethereal plane, which seem to suggest it is unnatural if they were true. I'm not actually arguing it is unnatural myself, I'm trying to use the fact that the Ethereal plane IS natural to dispute your reasoning. Does that make sense?

Did I say death wasn't a part of Nature? Stop, and take a breath. Arguments for argument sake aren't very helpful.

You keep lecturing me about things I already know. You assume that I don't think nature includes cycles... why? You assume that I think if someone dies Nature dies... why?

You lecture me about the evolution of language... why? I pointed out that dictionary definitions aren't comprehensive.


It is because you don't actually listen to my arguments. Instead you skim through and make assumptions then launch into a lecture about something that I have no argument with.

So their physical state is unnatural and anti-Nature, by your previous argument. (Note this is where I'm not seriously suggesting this, I'm using it to illustrate a problem with your reasoning)

In response to you, Daganev. Nature has adapted to the Taint, like I've been saying. Or better said, has grown to tolerate a more passive strand of Taint, giving way to things like the Glomdoring forest and the fact that a zoo made out of natural organisms can exist inside Magnagora. If the Taint resumed being the destructive force that was first manifested after it's release, then Nature wouldn't be able to tolerate it, instead the Taint would continue on shaping the entourage. Though the Taint itself, Nature won't ever really learn to completely assimilate it.

This is a reference to the Astral plane. Something looked like metal, but was made up of some other material. Its not some kind of illusion cast by a demon on every member of the party.
QUOTE
Me? I'm not denying nothing I don't like. I'm just assessing how a forest can ever be created and exist on a place that is void of components? Is made of liquid light therefore no solid mass (soil) that can sustain a forest. Also, remember that every plane has their own properties, and that cosmic magic endevours on playing with the fabric of creation and can create illusions: a forest. It is an illusion of a forest, imo. One can think it is a forest, but it really isn't but as far as you are concerned, it is there so it must be "real".

Fair enough. Then every time an adventurer transverses to a cosmic plane, I expect all their herbs to disappear, since the components that make them up don't exist there. Not to mention their clothes, weapons, etc.


First, you should lose herbs while in the arena, but you don't... some things just magically happen as well.

Second, if it applies to astral it applies to Celestia or Nil.
Capircorn is a pan of iron fillings, with stainless steel goats.

I'm not sure what desdemona means about liquid light, but I'm sure its not meaning liquid like water but rather liquid as in its shapeable and not just a wave/particle function.

Incidentally, I will never agree that the Taint is anything but the anti-thesis of Nature. I simply find any other alternative too personally offensive. Glomdoring is an example of ruined Nature, not Nature allied with Taint.

So your personaly beliefs are affecting your objective abilities to understand the cosmos and history of Lusternia?

I'm fairly sure Elryn just worded that one badly. 0_o'

Ah, I knew Daganev would leap at that. The denouncer of ooc bias (when it is convenient).

No, I'm just being honest about why I wouldn't want Nature and Taint to be coexistent. I realize that I could never expect my OOC beliefs to be enforced or consistent with Lusternia's world, and so I only argue based upon Lusternia's history, mythology and implementation. But I am allowed to have a reason for it, aren't I?

Think of an analogy. There's a game with a character called Jesus, who is a young carpenter that preaches love and compassion and teaches of a mystical God who he calls his father. Then, at nightfall, he turns into a vampiric demon who seduces innocent virgins before torturing them to their death. Do you think some OOC beliefs might encourage players to argue against what they perceive as a nonsensical interpretation?

You must be kidding me...

New Celest struggled and survived, yearning for the days of old and hoping to see the return of the Empire's former glory when all the Basin of Life was united under the Light.


However, there is a harder side to Sacraments that involve branding those who seek to subvert the Light.

the Holy Supernal will send forth an angelic companion to assist in the great works of the Light.

an angelic companion who helps in the good works in the name of the Light.

The Holy Emanations, like the Holy Supernals of Celestia, are enigmatic immortal beings of Light and Love.
Cosmic magic involves the manipulation of the fabric of creation itself.


Okay, how can you say that something that is undead is anti-Nature (unnatural) but something that is immortal is not?

If a force, by the power of it's followers seeks to expand the control of said force upon a place, at whatever the cost... this is unnatural too. If Cosmic magic toys with the fabrics of Creation/Nature, means it doesn't respect it's rule and cycles. Nature: dominant rules and cycles. Cosmic: rules and cyles= my toys.

Also, you take things that I say to literal. Light is expanded by their followers, the followers are learning to emmulate the powers from the Cosmic plane and bring them into their immediate entourage. A follower of said thing aspires to represent said cosmos. If the cosmic planes have their own properties and are created of completely independat substances, this means that it is completely different than Nature.

QUOTE

This is a reference to the Astral plane. Something looked like metal, but was made up of some other material.  Its not some kind of illusion cast by a demon on every member of the party.

Read my previous post. I obviously stated it was in reference to Astral. What this brings, is that every outer plane extended from Cosmos onto the beyond are made of completely different substances that you would find in Prime. Those planes have their own properties completely different to Prime/Nature's immediacy.

Also, it proves that if Cosmic magic plays with the fabrics of creation and allows the caster to make illusions... well, by the gods do they have the capacity of making any fabrication and make you believe it is real. This won't remove the fact that whatever is in Cosmic is of a completely different substance in Prime, and that all things found i Prime aren't found on Cosmic. Cosmic takes the appereance of a forest, but a forest cannot grow there. It is just an illusion that you may consider as real.

QUOTE

Fair enough.  Then every time an adventurer transverses to a cosmic plane, I expect all their herbs to disappear, since the components that make them up don't exist there.  Not to mention their clothes, weapons, etc.

Planar travel makes you adapt yourself to the plane you are visiting, equivalent to your constitution being similar or the same to those of the plane you are in. Just like those dumb angels are able to linger in Prime even when they are completely alien to Prime: through Magic.

QUOTE

You're not following what I'm saying.  If you want to make a certain argument, then apply it to all relevant areas.  If forests on Celestia are an illusion, then so is the desert landscape of Nil.  Why am I not affected by evil visions when I visit Nil, but I am when I visit Celestia?

Evil visions? Whatever are you saying? If a place has the capacity of of toy with your perceptions and create an imagery of something, for you it is real, does it really exist there? No. Can you harvest Sage in Nils landscape? Can you find Chervil in Celestia's forest? If it is an universal illusion, then all those that go there will perceive the same thing, and because it is an illusion created in the very origin of cosmic magic, it will be very powerful enough that it will be real for you, but not essentially true (not a real actual forest).

QUOTE

I include the cycles of living when I take about Life, Desdemona.  You really make far too much assumptions without reading what I'm trying to say. How can I be so strange?  I'm applying your argument.

You are not applying my argument, you are attacking it. First of you made the claim that Nature is Life. Then you say that simply because Celest and Magnagora struggle that they are more in.tune with Nature, just because I said that Nature is struggle and cycles, not alive itself. You meticously decided to ignore everything I said Nature was on the things that followed and stuck to the struggle. In which case, the struggle I applied was "the wolf hunting the deer, the bison trying to survive the winter"

Allow me to ellaborate for you. The wolf and deer both have a niche in their surrounding environment. Wolf the pradator hunts the deer to survive, the deer tries to outrun the wolf to stay alive. The bison, after the passing of seasons, and the comming of winter the bison must endure the cold and begina migration to more tolerable terrains. If you wish for me to define to you all possible interactions within a specific biome, I can do so. In this case, you would see how Nature is strucle between it's elements.

QUOTE

Actually, this has been a continuing point of confusion.  I often take the reasoning behind one of your arguments and apply it to a different situation to show how it fails.  That doesn't mean I am seriously arguing your point in that situation, I am trying to highlight its flaw.  I have used this technique twice now to extend your arguments to the Ethereal plane, which seem to suggest it is unnatural if they were true.  I'm not actually arguing it is unnatural myself, I'm trying to use the fact that the Ethereal plane IS natural to dispute your reasoning. Does that make sense?

In other words, you enjoy on taking whatever someone says and shape it and derive from their whatever meaning suits you. Good call. With such molding/dissecting I could also prove someone's argument to fail. And I must say that your reasoning about the Ethereal doesn't make sense... On your previous posts you were implying that I was trying to say that Ethereal is unnatural (anti-nature), when I told you that Ethereal is made out of the spirits of nature and the life force of every being. Is this Unnatural? Surely not, so if you now say that Ethereal is natural, then we agree here, because I never said the opposite.

QUOTE

Did I say death wasn't a part of Nature?  Stop, and take a breath.  Arguments for argument sake aren't very helpful.

You keep lecturing me about things I already know.  You assume that I don't think nature includes cycles... why? You assume that I think if someone dies Nature dies... why?

You keep making a resounding emphasis of Nature is Life. That seems like completely labeling Nature as life itself. When Nature is in fact not Life nor Death, it is the dynamic force that creates life, nourishes it and takes it away. That is my argument.

QUOTE

You lecture me about the evolution of language... why?  I pointed out that dictionary definitions aren't comprehensive. 

I lecture you about the evoltuion of language because a dictionary from today is completely different from a dictionary of 800 years from the past. I lecture you about the evolution of language to describe you how constnalty do people mix concepts together expanding it's meaning. Also, in here I manifested to you, that no matter how incomplete (it's not the right term, imo), the knowledge about what nature was in times of druids and others, nature concept was so evolved as it is today. For sure the druids of that time didn't have much of the knowledge of today. So, considering Nature as infitinity isn't really recommended.

QUOTE

It is because you don't actually listen to my arguments.  Instead you skim through and make assumptions then launch into a lecture about something that I have no argument with.

I could say exactly the same about you Elryn. Or if not I wouldn't be repeating to you things we've talked about in various of our previous arguments. I feel you like to dissect what I say and attack the fragmented parts, instead of the argument entirely.

QUOTE

So their physical state is unnatural and anti-Nature, by your previous argument. (Note this is where I'm not seriously suggesting this, I'm using it to illustrate a problem with your reasoning)

64313

In this part, I'm going to tell you to reread my posts. Because I said that the Ethereal in intrinsically connected with Prime. That fae are the spirits of nature, that thanks to Ellindel they lost their ethereal form to comprise a form with more accordance to the components of Prime plane: physical form.

Having to repeat this further gives me proof that you isolate fragments of my argument and target them in your arguments, and decide to completely ignore other elements injected within my words.

Only if they were crazy christains.

Movies do that all the time. Ever seen Underworld? Or even played Vampire the Masquerade. In that series The first Vampire was Cain, and the mark of the beast he got was becoming a vampire. It fit the Masqureade world well, but It doesn't fit any actually interpreataion that you could make if you actaully read the story.


I'm still curious about what this bias everyone sticks on me is about...

the only bias I know of is my own brain which intereprests and reads things differently than every other brain, just like yours does.


Why is it so hard to believe that Nature can attapt to a transformation. Isn't that what evolution is all about?

Glomdoring is an example of a hazard going on in a place, and after the years Nature resuming it's course: an erruption completely wiping an area, slow process of repopulation by natural entities. The Taint by itself can't be completely assimilated by nature, just like organic flesh because the Taint of a different nature, just like the Light. So, in this manner, Nature may learn to tolerate both forces if they remain passive or else those forces will shape Nature at whim.



Nature can learn to adapt to acccept invading forces, organism alive themselves may change to adapt such transformations. But the process of adaptation will be more difficult depending on how sudden the transforming force was introduced.