Desdemona, not one of those quotes says that the Supernals want to convert the Prime plane into cosmic energy.


Easy, because something that is undead was once alive. That is, it has been removed from the cycles of Nature and now exists in a state antithetical to what it 'naturally' should be. Here, the Supernals aren't technically immortal, they can be killed.

An interesting point (though not entirely relevant here) is that you can consider a forest to be immortal. As long as nothing actively kills it, it can live forever. I believe many trees are much the same, potentially immortal.


No its not. Serenwilde does this.


Alright, let me simplify my problem with your illusion theory. It is this:

You are making it up.

Can you harvest kombu (I think thats the ocean herb) on the Water plane? No. Why? Because the energies of the Elemental plane have an effect on what sort of place it is. Does that mean that the oceans of Water Plane are totally unrelated to the element of Water on prime, because they are slightly different?

Of course! In fact, they probably aren't water at all, and its just an illusion to make those aquamancers -think- they're in water. Not only that, its so convincing they even think they are swimming!

As for not applying your argument, let me clarify my thought process.

After saying very carefully that Nature IS NOT LIFE, you then said, well, if Nature is anything at all it is struggle. Now, let's think about this. You ruled out Life from Nature, but I assume you still want death to be a part of it, and the elements, and then you said that struggle for survival was the major part of it.

I went, alright, lets play this out to its logical conclusion. If Nature has nothing to do with Life, and only is defined by death, elements, static environment, and primarily struggle... then the war between the cities is in tune with Nature.


Yet you haven't.

No I wasn't.

Good.


Are you implying that is what I said? Again, I'm confused about where you are finding all this.

If you feel like I address each piece of your supporting evidence individually, well, I do.

Your argument in its entirety is that cosmic is anti-Nature because its cosmic, based on various pieces of what you call evidence.

If we are to have any hope of discussing these things sensibly, the only way we can do so is to question each supporting argument to see if it is false or not. As I have said, the only argument that I have heard that bears some merit is in the events post. I'm open to something else turning up though.


Good gods, I don't think we're going to get anywhere. You said that angels and demons were unnatural because the only way they arrived on Prime was by summoning.

I went, ok, sure. Let's continue that to see what else the argument would apply to if it were correct. Fae do not naturally manifest on prime, they are on the Ethereal plane. Of course Ethereal is related to nature, but for the purposes of your argument, it is still a foreign plane to prime. Now, the only way fae appear physically on Prime is by summoning. Hence, by your argument about summoning... fae are unnatural. Wrong.

oy oy oy

As for undeath... Technically undead are alive, you can still kill them.
Undead are no more unnatural than ressurecting them and stoping them from going through the portal of fates is.

Second, the illusion thing is not being made up, its backed up by hte statement by lollipringle that says its metal but its not "real" metal.

I thought you could destroy their bodies, but they are already in a state of death?

The statement about not being 'real' metal I suspect is describing some area of Astral that has something that would normally be made out of metal, but it's some foreign substance. However, to be honest I haven't explored Astral enough to be able to explain it. Isn't there an area with 'metal filings' or something like that? Maybe someone who can survive (*cough*) easily up there would like to explore this?

Capricorn is a Giant Metal frying pan basically, with stainless steel goats... I thought I allreayd explained that.

The planes are ideas made into landforms. Ethereal is the Concept of Nature. Nil is the Concept of the Taint. Celest is the Concept of the Light. Water Elemental plane is the Concept of Water.

Prime is the natural existance, all things on prime are nature, save if they have been brought from another plane. The idea of nature is still nature, hence Ethereal and Prime native things are natural, the rest artificial. Serenwilde isnt about 'natural' it is about 'nature'. Anything which makes the natural artificial is in opposition to nature. The concept of Light is unnatural, the concept of Taint is unnatural, the concepts of the elements are unnatural. Demesnes, both water and earth destroy plant life. The taint itself doesnt even destroy plantlife, merely slow its growth, and change it, imbuing the object with its 'concept'. This is why there is so much weird in Glomdoring. Both Light and Taint alter nature to their forms when contact occurs.

Edit: Language censored. (Elryn)

Maybe that is the metal that isn't 'real' metal?

Calm yourself. There's no need to do such things.

Post a few room descriptions, perhaps? I could see lolly talking about the goats as first thinking they are metal, but then the grand cypher realizing they are alive. That is what I meant. It doesn't mean the whole astral plane is an optical illusion.

A pan of iron filings.
Superimposed over this location, an ethereal forest reaches up to the sky. An
perceive
enormous iron pan juts out from the floating island of metal and is filled with
iron filings, like a beach of black sand. The filings and the pan itself are
rusting, filling the air with the tangy metallic scent of corrosion. A stone
megalith rises up from the iron filings here. An inscribed crimson mask
wreathed in flames stands here atop a pillar of obsidian.
You see exits leading east and west

A metal junkyard.
Superimposed over this location, an ethereal forest reaches up to the sky.
perceive
Melded together is a huge collection of metal objects, the purpose of which is
utterly alien and incomprehensible, yet some are mechanical apparatuses that
somewhat function, belching foul steam or turning broken gears or rusted
levers.
You see exits leading southeast, southwest, and west.


A forest of rusted swords.
Superimposed over this location, an ethereal forest reaches up to the sky. Upon
perceive
the metallic floor are enormous sculptures of trees created from rusted and
broken swords. The trees are twisted and bent, clawing up to the darkness of
astral space, raining down a fine snow of red rust as they sway and creak
ominously.
You see exits leading northeast, southwest, and northwest.



Thos are the first three rrooms Loolipringgled would have seen.

Maybe, just maybe, they were referring to things that looked like metal but weren't metal? In a poetic way?
I can say the sun at sunset is an orange but isn't an orange (as in "looks like an orange but it isn't obviously an orange").

Plus, how would Lolly Pringle know if they were or were not metal anyway? He couldn't have simply analysed its structural composition at the long-distance glance he had, unless Furrikin vision rocks a lot more than my game statistics seen to show.

He was really just saying, "Huh, it's a load of scrap metal OHNN NO IT ISN'T! >_<"

So that would make it a pear? Or a rotten tomato?

Isn't the Grand Cipher some magical dude? He should be able to tell if it's metal or not, and I think Lolly Pringle said that HE said it wasn't metal.

(too lazy to learn the syntax for the quotey thing) Elryn: I thought you could destroy their bodies, but they are already in a state of death?

If all our cells were already in a state of death and our bodies need to be destroyed, we wouldn't bleed, because only a living heart pumps blood. We's be able to keep going even if you disembowel us, because hey, who needs intestines if you don't need to eat? Which we do. We need to sleep, to rest our cells. Dead cells don't need rest. Gawd, that would really make us unkillable, unless you completely burn us up, but heh, we need to eat, we need to sleep, and we bleed.

We're not dead, we're just umm... revived, and improved in a Taintly fashion. Like when someone is technically dead, heart stops, breathing stops, no brain function, all appearances dead, and you use those electric paddle thingies and revive them... weren't they dead? Hmm... now I have an image that lichdom is like a giant pair of Tainted electric paddles... but ANYWAY, next point.

If nothing died, everything would die.

Yes, I'm explaining now.

(yes, I'm doing the lazy quote again) Elryn:
I hazard to say that if it is dead, it isn't Nature anymore. Death (the process) is clearly a part of the natural cycles, but it isn't like you can say the dead wood that builds houses in Celest is as much a part of Nature as the living trees in Serenwilde, can you? Not without abandoning everything as being natural.

Animals and plants (natural ones, no Taint, no Light) need to eat to survive. What do they eat? Dead things of course! Or well, things they make dead so that they can digest them. The wolf needs to kill the cow so it will sit there like a lump of dead meat and be eaten. Plants eats dead things. When the tiger dies and rots, it feeds the plant. What is food? Dead things. How can dead things not be part of nature? Everything in nature needs to eat. Ever tried digesting a live cow? Me neither. So, everything NEEDS to die. Which in that case, makes the Light as unnatural as the Taint, just in a different way.

That wood for the house thing... tell me... where do beavers live, and what is it made of? Just because we sandpaper it and maybe color it so it looks pretty, doesn't make it any more dead than the wood the beaver uses to create his dam.

Or how about the endless number of species who can only live in dead trees, or even kill trees, like termites.

I won't bother to seperate your argument into different quotes. I'll just make a general reponse. Though I must admit that I am flabbergasted at your capacity of altering my arguments, isolating whatever I say into clusters and attack those altered clusters seperately.

For starters, no... You credit my "creativity" too much. I wish I had made up the theories of optical illusions and the power of suggestion. What I did, is something you surely haven't bothered to do: play connect. Allow me to show you how my process of connecting the pieces lead to me that Cosmic is anti-Nature, and why I said that the Light wants to shape things up, just like the Taint would if in direct contact with Nature:

Cosmic:

Cosmic magic involves the manipulation of the fabric of creation itself.
Requiring a study in High Magic to even begin its study, mastering the art
will eventually lead to the ability to travel freely to the higher, cosmic
planes. The specializations are highly associated with the nexus of power
of the adept's city.


Only available to Celestines, this specialization in cosmic magic creates
a bond between the adept and Celestia, the Plane of Light. Ruling over
angelic beings of Celestia are the Holy Supernals, to whom Celestines
pledge themselves. Upon gaining a pledge, the Holy Supernal will send
forth an angelic companion to assist in the great works of the Light.

The Celestine Guild is the priesthood of Light, both protecting and being
protected by the angelic plane of Celestia. As the spiritual leaders of
New Celest, they uphold the teachings of the Holy Supernals of Celestia,
seeking justice and harmony for all. Once pledged to a Holy Supernal, the
blessed Celestine is almost always accompanied by an angelic companion who
helps in the good works in the name of the Light.

Celestines are a guardian archetype. Thus, they are required to take
HighMagic as a common skill before being able to study Cosmic magic. Once
having mastered Cosmic magic, the Celestine then specializes in
Celestialism, allowing them to travel to the cosmic plane of Celestia and
make pledges to the Holy Supernals. Their main secondary skill is Rituals,
which when they master will allow them to specialize in Sacraments,
thereby enhancing their holy powers. At some point Celestines choose
either to take the Healing skill to become healers or to train in Tarot
which is a more aggressive art. Celestines may take Enchantment as a trade
skill.


The cosmic planes are sometimes called the higher planes. Each cosmic
plane has a unique vibration which calls to certain mortals, such
vibration embodying a philosophy and way of thinking. The greater divine
beings live on these planes often help those who choose to be guardians of
their plane. Though mortals do not fully understand what these beings are,
it is interesting to note that the Elder Gods refer to them (sometimes
affectionately and sometimes contemptuously) as the 'half-formed'. Two of
the great known cosmic planes were lost during the Taint Wars, and one
cosmic plane was corrupted by the Taint. The layer of cosmic planes lie
between the elemental planes and the astral plane.


High Magic is a branch of magical knowledge surrounding the study of the
cabala, or spheres of energies, also known as sephiroth, that compose the
universe. These spheres are symbolically arranged on a diagram called the
Tree of Life and connected by a network of paths. A variety of useful and
beneficial spellcraft can be learned through mastering this occult
philosophy. This branch of arcane studies is highly ritualized and
intellectualized, and is also a prerequisite for studying cosmic or
elemental magic.

Rituals focuses upon chanting and tonal notes to perform various magical
rites. Though High Magic is not a prerequisite, Rituals is sometimes
associated with High Magic because both were established in civilized
urban environments. Upon mastering this magical skill, the ritualist may
move on to the specialization associated with the nexus of power they are
connected to.

Illusions is a highly developed magical art, allowing the adept to weave
illusions from light and shadow. Some illusions affect what others see
and perceive, while others actually insert illusions into the minds.
While illusionists are popularly known for spectacular pyrotechnics
displays during festivals, they also make great spies, able to use their
glamours as the ultimate form of infiltration.


- The universe of Lusternia consists of multiple planes of existence, which
it is possible to travel between using certain magical abilities. These
include the prime material plane (the Basin of Life, Lusternia itself),
the ethereal plane, the elemental planes, the cosmic planes and the
astral plane. A plane can be thought of as a world to itself, parallel
and connected to the material world but having its own character and
properties.

Before I continue, let me tell you something about reality. For a schizophrenic, who may claim that he has experienced visits by Jesus Christ, or that he has entered a room where a feast was served, for him the experience was as real as it can be. His mind may even have triggered the perception of registered smells. Does this make the schizophrenics hallucinations real/true to the rest? Definately not. But it was real to him. This is your mind playing tricks on your perceptions, so to speak. Now, look at the instance of Illusions, High Magic, and Cosmic Magic:

To be able to study able Cosmic Magic and Illusions you must endevour on learning High Magic that is a form of magic more refined than Low Magic. A style of magic completely ritualized, one of a more intellectual plane, and one that subsequently will allow you to connect to the Cosmic planes and cosmic Magic. Cosmic Magic toys with the fabrics of creation, meaning that through its manipulation of creation it is capable of shaping creation at whim ignoring rules/guidelines. A perfect embodiment of this face of Cosmic Magic is Illusions, where a person is capable of toying with your perceptions or with your very mind by creating illusions that to you they may seem real. Evidence that shows that Nature is greatly harmed by alien powers (Cosmic included): The spirits of Nature were devastated when the Soulless were trapped in the Earth, the Taint changing everything it touched alongside with Nature. Further proof that shows that Nature and Cosmic can't completely be assimilated by each other and remain stable was the whole tainted fae incident, where Gorgulo went out of control, thanks to the instability of Nature/Cosmic mixed together because they are anathema to each other.



Now, considering that the Basis for this type of Magics is extended onto the Cosmic planes... Take a look at what is stated about the Cosmic planes: They are made out vibrations embodying a certain philosophy (state of mind, ideas and beliefs). That every being in the Cosmic plane is made out of different components than other planes and all have different properties. The plane of Celestia, which was the subject of our discussion, is made up of liquid power. The Celestials are immortal beings that are the embodiments of the Light, thusly they took a form to represent their philosophy.

Allow me to clarify to you something, the reason why the Supernals die to be crude, is because they are part of a quest. But the point is that the Supernals are immortal, they just temporalily lose their form instead of actually getting killed.

Now, it is clear (at least to me, of course you will argue otherwise), that the Cosmic is higher plane of a more specialized energy, completely different in property to Prime/Ethereal(Nature). Also, it is made up of completely different properties that what is find in prime, in case of Celestia it is liquid power. The Cosmic planes embody a philosophy, and that philosophy is embodied by the creatures that inhabit Cosmic. This same philosophy is the one in charge to channel into the mind of mortals (Guardians, adherents of the Light/Taint), and teach their their philosphy bestow upon them powers native to the nature of Cosmic planes. Now, this followers are guardians, protectors and worshippers of those powers, and bring them into Prime emmulating and retaning the inherent properties of cosmic magic: manipulating the very fabrics of creation.

Coincidentally, the cities who where connected to Cosmic planes where the cities that sought to manipulate the entourage by increasing their cities and becoming closer with their respective Cosmic planes. Celest and Magnagora, both strictly abdide by the philosophies of their respective Cosmic planes, trying to expand the influence of their power onto Prime at the cost of Nature's influence/health. The Taint manifested itself at a more aggressive form clearly showing how the a strand of Cosmic influence may transform Nature, because like Akraasiel said, both Light and Taint have the capacity to alter Nature because they are alien to Nature and aim to do just that: transform.

Further proof that Cosmic seek to transform things according to it's influence would be: the fae changing to imps and angels if taken to either Celestia/Nil (anyone care to expand on this? I'm sure it has been discussed more in depth elsewhere).

Regarding Elemental. I think I'll have to define to you what elements are, because it seems like you have know knowledge whatsoever of what are the Elemental planes supposed to represent:

A fundamental, essential, or irreducible constituent of a composite entity.
Chemistry & Physics. A substance composed of atoms having an identical number of protons in each nucleus. Elements cannot be reduced to simpler substances by normal chemical means.
One of four substances, earth, air, fire, or water, formerly regarded as a fundamental constituent of the universe.

Take notice that this are the definitions that are congruent with the concepts of Lusternia. In other words, all the element togethers have as composit the normal physical plane. This composites refined are reduced to their components= the elements. Each of these elements are embodied in their elemental planes which are made entirely of either one of the four elements: fire, water, earth, air. So, Elryn, water is water plane is the pure and refined state of water. Water is the complete and only foundation of the existance of Water. So... what I want to tell you, Elryn. Stop being silly and drawing conclusions based by what I said and trying to shape it to suit you.

The reason why plants from the Ocean can only exist on prime is because such plants are composites. Those plants need the entourage of Nature to live. In Celestia, what you see isn't a real forest, just an illusion, and it's not a composite either... so aside from spackleberry (I think it is), no other plants can properly grow there.

Also, again you prove your absurdity. Nature is about cycles, cyles often made of opposites that have a cyclical repeating motion, each cycle appereantly connected to another creating a mass web. Nature is the matrix, the womb that spawns things the Life giver, it provides with sustenance that often involves with the destruction of an organism so another organism can survive, though it is also the force that kills things. Nature I can see is far complex for you to understand. Nature has it's own system of balance, spawns and kills, and creates and destroys always trying to mantain a balance. By no means did I say Nature has nothing to do with Life. That is you drawing your conclusions. It is you who constantly keeps saying Nature IIIIIS Life. Which is just wrong. If you don't understand that Nature is made out of two opposites power created/sustained/manifested by a single entity, you surely don't understand that Nature isn't Life. Nature is Creator and Destroyer.

Regarding forests, don't be so poetic. Forests dies. Guess what, forests are made of organic material. Trees may live for ages, but they die, a forest fire can wipe them out, parasitic entities may hazard them, trees fall, trees and all living things are subject of death and decomposition. Therefore, they are natural, because they live, sustain themselves and die. Once they die they decompose, returning to the cycles as some energy. And also, by no means can you ignore deforestation just because it is convinient to you. Forests are chopped down. Every organism in nature kills another to survive, trees try to outgrow another to occupy a place under the sun. Things are born, eat and are eaten. Once everything dies, it returns to the soil. If anything about Nature is "immortal", it is the continuation of it's cycles. But guess what? Even those cycles may experience changed and be altered. Forests may turn into swamps, plains into deserts, etc., etc. Nature is dynamic and has it's rules, when changes are impacted upon Nature, all beings on Nature are forced to adapt: Glomdoring.

The struggle between Nature's cycles and the components that make up Nature in order to survive and adapt is completely different than the struggle between two warring parties: Celest and Magnagora, who by any chance try to phase out Nature and bring their own philosophies into control in Prime. Philosophies that have the abilitiy to manipulate creation (Nature) as they want to.

Immortality, the complete denial of death is UNNATURAL. Complete osctracize from the a cycle is unnatural. Especially when I am sure that the Supernals weren't breeded by a living organism. Supernals are merely embodiments of energy, shaped by the characteristics proper to the different types of energy (vibrations).

The undead on the other hand. They are decomposing bodies, the spirits of the ones that died not completely leaving the body. Undead aren't unnatural. If anything would be unnatural would be meddling with the spirits leaving the body, the process of making undead is. Not the undead themselves.

Also, brilliant Elryn. I said that angels are beings from Cosmic, that are only able to be on Prime through the magical encantations of their summoners, summoners who maintain a direct link with their Cosmic plane. I said this thanks to your constant argument of: (something between the lines of) but angels they are in Prime, so they must be part of nature. Now, this cosmic beings from cosmic forces capable of manipulation creation are present in Prime, thanks to the summoners, but they never ever loose their Cosmic origins attributes.

The fae, brilliant Elryn are spirits of Nature that had always been perceived by the wiccans and had always played important role within Nature and Prime. Though, until Ellindel, no one really knew about the actual existance of the fae (thanks to Kiakoda keeping it secret). What Ellindel did could be viewed as summoning, but what she really did was simply give physical form to the spirits of nature that had been interacting with the forces of Nature all along. So, more than summoning, I would like to say that the fae were transmuted from ethereal into physical. Not necessarily summon, because the fae were already there and it was the fae that made direct contact with the wiccans/druids.



I found this funny.

Then don't call it undeath. Call it a skill of resurrection. Don't give liches any different characteristics to what tainted viscanti are when they're alive. Give them the same experience loss as if they had been resurrected like other skills do.

Here, you are quite right. I spoke poorly and shouldn't have totally excluded dead items from 'Nature'. I still think that once they die they become part of the environment in which Life thrives, and in some ways they are a lesser part of Nature than the Life which actively drives the cycles... but you have correctly pointed out that I was wrong to exclude them entirely.

A lich is a dead body. Undead is the process of keeping the soul inside the dead body.

This would be most similar to a hermit crab who moves from shell to shell as they become worthless.

Oh good, another useless lecture. Thankyou for pointing out that illusions can seem real in a whole paragraph. You could just say that, however. Again, this is something I would never dream of arguing with you.

Also, hold on a moment. Before you start arguing that high magic is somehow a part of cosmic magic, I'll just point out that while the ritualized training of High Magic is required for learning cosmic magics... don't forget that Serenwilde warriors can also choose it.

I think this 'game' you play of connect, as you call it, is going a little far. Illusions aren't an aspect of cosmic magic. As far as I know, only Elemental mages can learn in it, and they don't specialize in cosmic.

Yep, agreed. And every one of those pieces of evidence is explained by the Taint. Not one applies to an untainted cosmic plane.

Aye, much like the fae are immortal.

Or, coincidentally, the cities that were power-hungry and expansionist enough to find the Cosmic planes in the first place, then continued on that path.

Also, the Taint isn't cosmic. Sorry.

Aye, the Supernals and Demon Lords will pervert the fae that are brought to them into creatures that will serve them. This shows they are both willing to disregard the sanctity of Nature. However, I believe you can lead a fae to a cosmic plane without any particular magic spell to preserve them. Thus, cosmic planes themselves aren't deadly to the fae.

Oh, so only you should draw conclusions that suit you from your reasoning? It doesn't apply anywhere else? Got it.

WHY IS CELESTIA AN ILLUSION BUT ELEMENTAL/ETHEREAL/NIL PLANES AREN'T?

Yes, Nature is beyond me but you have it down pat, right? If only I could spend years in contemplation of those two magic cards I might have a fraction of the understanding you have gained of ecology. Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your snide insults. If you can't defend your views without endlessly repeating them regardless of what anyone says, then perhaps it is time to give them a critical review?

So, I say Nature primarily involves Life, but I'm wrong. You say Nature isn't Life repeatedly, that it is primarily struggle and death, but you never said that Nature has nothing to do with Life. And Nature isn't Creator and Destroyer, that would be Dynara and Magnora.

Yes, forests can be destroyed. But without intervention, they can live forever. And as I pointed out earlier, the fae are immortal.

Ok, first, what the hell? Where did I say that angels are part of nature because they are on prime? I used the fact they can exist happily on Ethereal/Prime as an example of how they -aren't- anathema to Nature itself.

No, the fae -weren't- always on prime. However, I can see how this could be an arguable point because there isn't complete information available. But the term 'manifesting physically' is equivalent to 'summoned from Ethereal'. The Ethereal realm is Nature's spiritual realm, and it is here that the Fae have been 'interacting with Nature all along', that is true. But the fae definitely weren't physically on prime until after Ellindel first contacted them, and then learned how to summon them physically.

That's what I thought. Totally agreed. I thought Jadryga argued that it wasn't.

Anything and everything would live forever without intervention.

Volcanoes kill forests.

Jadryga was saying that undead people arn't really as undead as you would think because of all these things that still affect undead people.

Being underwater should not affect someoen who is undead, nor should bleeding, or heartstop for that matter.